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#21 Bob in SF

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 11:53 PM

Thanks kindly, Jim!

Best regards - Bob

#22 Claypple

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 12:03 AM

I think there are two main kinds of potters: Production and Art. (I don't consider hobby potters to be potters. I'm completely leaving out people who've taken a couple of pottery classes and now inflict their bunny rabbit mugs on relatives as Christmas and ask on this forum what temperatures the little dots on the kiln dials represent)
I don't see the difference between pure production pottery and working in a factory.


Jim


So what is the "Art"? Who are the judges? We were criticizing the bowels with grapes and fairies (and I didn't like them at all either!!),
but there were a couple of members who were saying "Ah, it is beautiful!". Besides, the couple of people presumably even bought them in the past.
So, are we superior to those people who liked them?

What about the production potters who have their own style? Or production potters who are making beautiful things, even though they are just teapots and plates you can use every day?

Would you say that a vessel that looks different from anything else created before is art, but something that looks conventional is not?


I am not arguing with you, but it is not clear for me how you can separate art from non-art.

In fact, I even gonna give you a reason to laugh at me: this is what I thought was an art when I made it at first.
It was my very very first vase that I ever made, so I still like it. For me, it has a character.
Well, I am not sure you consider me a potter, though. :-)
..... So, what IS the ART? Attached File  100_1888.JPG   410.56KB   30 downloads




#23 Biglou13

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 07:47 AM

Arts like beauty is in the eye if the beholder.

This returns to,the whole Jackson pollock discussion.?!?!

But asking the question" is it art?" Is like asking what Is the secret to life.

I don't think there is a definitive answer.

I claim no sense of elitism in having opinions on people's work. But as a creative person/ potter/ artist/ craftsman....... You better have thick skin because some one is always going to,have an opinion/criticism of work. An educated eye is just that an educated eye.

Lets look at tea bowls for example. I have a few absolutely horrible ones now living in sculpture garden (thrown in back yard). And then there are tea bowls that sell for thousands of dollars.

Sure the $1000 bowl is technically, and more aesthetically pleasing but at what point does it. Crossover into art????

There isin't a definitive answer, however I find a clue pointing towards the answer ...... Some one paid thousands of dollars for said item......

Back to,original topic. I really don want to be classified can't I just play with mud.........

I'm with. Doc. Carefull making hobbies into work. It can suck the joy and passion right out of it.

But if I had to choose art and production. I'd choose art.


Ps . Keep,the drama coming........
Caution big brother is watching.
The beige is blinding!!!!!!
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#24 OffCenter

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 08:06 AM


I think there are two main kinds of potters: Production and Art. (I don't consider hobby potters to be potters. I'm completely leaving out people who've taken a couple of pottery classes and now inflict their bunny rabbit mugs on relatives as Christmas and ask on this forum what temperatures the little dots on the kiln dials represent)
I don't see the difference between pure production pottery and working in a factory.


Jim


So what is the "Art"? Who are the judges? We were criticizing the bowels with grapes and fairies (and I didn't like them at all either!!),
but there were a couple of members who were saying "Ah, it is beautiful!". Besides, the couple of people presumably even bought them in the past.
So, are we superior to those people who liked them?

What about the production potters who have their own style? Or production potters who are making beautiful things, even though they are just teapots and plates you can use every day?

Would you say that a vessel that looks different from anything else created before is art, but something that looks conventional is not?


I am not arguing with you, but it is not clear for me how you can separate art from non-art.

In fact, I even gonna give you a reason to laugh at me: this is what I thought was an art when I made it at first.
It was my very very first vase that I ever made, so I still like it. For me, it has a character.
Well, I am not sure you consider me a potter, though. :-)
..... So, what IS the ART?

Posted Image


I'd never laugh you. You're a treasure for posting things like this instead of When I'm bisque firing should I leave the lid to the kiln all the way open or just half-way? I can only see the thumbnail of the pic because when I click on it it tells me I'm not allowed.... Yes, yes, yes, one person's Art is another person's belly-laugh and no there's no Ultimate Arbitrator so when one of the nuns suggest that Matisse's "Stations of the Cross" in the Rosary Chapel (that he considered his masterpiece) should be whitewashed over she is considered an idiot because Henri Matisse is a great artist so it must be good.http://www.bridgemanart.com/asset/309533/Matisse-Henri-1869-1954/Stations-of-the-Cross-1948-51-ceramic-tile My point being that yes, of course, aesthetic value is subjective and the world of art is largely one big con job but we still have to try..... I assume whatever you posted a picture of is an early work that you were happy with then and now that you've grown, you look back and say what a piece of ######. That's good. That's what I work for. I absolutely love it when I have a pot that I think is great and then come into my studio (chase the snakes away) and look at it with fresh eyes and say "What a piece of ######!" and toss it.... So, I guess my main point is that we shouldn't be afraid to judge just because we may come off as pretentious or un-PC or impolite or whatever because if you don't then we have some ###### coming here showing pictures of godawful vases with poorly carved fairies and grapes and declaring it the greatest pottery any of us has seen and people here so afraid of offending someone that they shamefully and sheepishly say, "Nice work."

Jim
E pur si muove.

"But it does move," said Galileo under his breath.

#25 OffCenter

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 08:34 AM

Arts like beauty is in the eye if the beholder.

This returns to,the whole Jackson pollock discussion.?!?!

But asking the question" is it art?" Is like asking what Is the secret to life.

I don't think there is a definitive answer.

I claim no sense of elitism in having opinions on people's work. But as a creative person/ potter/ artist/ craftsman....... You better have thick skin because some one is always going to,have an opinion/criticism of work. An educated eye is just that an educated eye.

Lets look at tea bowls for example. I have a few absolutely horrible ones now living in sculpture garden (thrown in back yard). And then there are tea bowls that sell for thousands of dollars.

Sure the $1000 bowl is technically, and more aesthetically pleasing but at what point does it. Crossover into art????

There isin't a definitive answer, however I find a clue pointing towards the answer ...... Some one paid thousands of dollars for said item......

Back to,original topic. I really don want to be classified can't I just play with mud.........

I'm with. Doc. Carefull making hobbies into work. It can suck the joy and passion right out of it.

But if I had to choose art and production. I'd choose art.


Ps . Keep,the drama coming........


The Pollock discussion was a good one because it is a wonderful example of confusing art with collecting. One has very very little to do with the other and that is proved by the fact that said painting in the Pollock discussion was either worth about $5 or $5,000,000 depending on who did it, not its artistic value. As something to collect that makes sense, but as an art object it shouldn't matter who painted it.... Calling your art a hobby can also suck the joy and passion right out of it.

Jim
E pur si muove.

"But it does move," said Galileo under his breath.

#26 trina

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 08:51 AM

Dream vs Reality:

Dream : I will open a studio, they will flock for miles to buy my fairies and grapes and anything else I can think up. I will never run out of ideas. My work is in the national gallery. Everyone loves me and I am rich.



Reality: This is what we all face daily. There is no black or white here, one way or the other


Whatever we have to do to get that one moment of bliss ie the perfect pot or whatever we love to do makes everything else worthwhile and pays the bills.

What is Art: Who really knows, does it change, yes. For me it is like first love. I love you , i love you, i loooovveee you sooooo much and then......, I never realised you had bad breath. Its fickle but memorable.

T

#27 OffCenter

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 08:52 AM

I have to add this last post that I think is an example of one person's art being another person's belly-laugh. I recently posted the following mug on a Facebook page as an example of some glazes. I also liked the mug because to me it had the gesture and movement I was looking for, but, a relative who took a high school ceramics class recently sent me an email saying, "Uncle Jimmy, the glazes are pretty but that is one lumpy cup and the handle is crooked. You need to practice pulling cylinders." http://ceramicartsda...wimage&img=2562

Jim
E pur si muove.

"But it does move," said Galileo under his breath.

#28 Claypple

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 08:52 AM

Back to,original topic. I really don want to be classified can't I just play with mud.........



That's exactly why I said it would be unfair to bring the subject of art to this thread!!!!!!!
One thing is to talk about full time potters vs part time potters (and this is what that article and the post was about),
another thing is to divide/label/sort out/classify.

Thank you everyone for passionate responses.

I fixed the photo. Still don't think it is art, but I do, too, LOVE playing in mud after a day of dealing with sick or dying patients, devastated families and exhausted staff. (I do geriatrics). I think there are more doctors here on the Forum than it seems at first. Ha!

#29 OffCenter

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 08:59 AM

That's exactly why I said it would be unfair to bring the subject of art to this thread!!!!!!!


Relax, Claypple.
E pur si muove.

"But it does move," said Galileo under his breath.

#30 Claypple

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 09:05 AM


That's exactly why I said it would be unfair to bring the subject of art to this thread!!!!!!!


Relax, Claypple.


Posted Image

#31 GEP

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 09:11 AM

Of all the full-time professional potters I've ever met, the following phrase applies to all of them:

You don't choose it, it chooses you.

Mea
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#32 Benzine

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 10:36 PM


" or spend 1000 hours carving grapes and fairies on already hideous vases so their son can declare here that it is the world's greatest pottery."


That thread, really rubbed you the wrong way, didn't it?


You picked up on that, did you?

Jim


What can I say, I pick up on subtlety very well........
"Anything worth believing, is worth questioning"

#33 Pres

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 08:04 AM

My father used to have a saying that often he didn't follow, but I remember it well. "If you can't say something nice/constructive about something, don't say anything at all", I often follow this rule when posting anywhere. It keeps me from abusing the anonymity of the web. So when you don't see a post of mine somewhere, understand often why, other times. . . I am either too naive, or not technical enough, or experienced enough to say anything.

BTW Offcenter, at the risk of sucking up to such a grench, I liked the mug. The comments well, first off I found that many times a leaning handle fits the hand better for a rt or lft hander, people buy mugs that way. Secondly, I throw very tight regular forms(boring) and am working hard to loosen up. I admire the flow of the form with the flow of the glaze, and the movement of the leaning handle fits with the form accent line. . . . . Just my humble opinion.

Simply retired teacher, not dead, living the dream. on and on and. . . . on. . . .                                                                                 http://picworkspottery.blogspot.com/


#34 trina

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 08:38 AM


My father used to have a saying that often he didn't follow, but I remember it well. "If you can't say something nice/constructive about something, don't say anything at all", I often follow this rule when posting anywhere. It keeps me from abusing the anonymity of the web. So when you don't see a post of mine somewhere, understand often why, other times. . . I am either too naive, or not technical enough, or experienced enough to say anything.






When I can't say something nice I generally revert to a good old Canadian "Holy Smokes EH!" T







BTW Offcenter, at the risk of sucking up to such a grench, I liked the mug. The comments well, first off I found that many times a leaning handle fits the hand better for a rt or lft hander, people buy mugs that way. Secondly, I throw very tight regular forms(boring) and am working hard to loosen up. I admire the flow of the form with the flow of the glaze, and the movement of the leaning handle fits with the form accent line. . . . . Just my humble opinion.



#35 OffCenter

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 11:27 AM

My father used to have a saying that often he didn't follow, but I remember it well. "If you can't say something nice/constructive about something, don't say anything at all", I often follow this rule when posting anywhere. It keeps me from abusing the anonymity of the web. So when you don't see a post of mine somewhere, understand often why, other times. . . I am either too naive, or not technical enough, or experienced enough to say anything.

BTW Offcenter, at the risk of sucking up to such a grench, I liked the mug. The comments well, first off I found that many times a leaning handle fits the hand better for a rt or lft hander, people buy mugs that way. Secondly, I throw very tight regular forms(boring) and am working hard to loosen up. I admire the flow of the form with the flow of the glaze, and the movement of the leaning handle fits with the form accent line. . . . . Just my humble opinion.


My father had a saying, too. Almost every time I began a sentence with "I wish...", he would say, "Wish in one hand and take a dump in the other and see which gets full first." So sorry to offend the delicate among you, but the hackneyed maxim "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all" makes even my father's crude saying seem intelligent when compared to it. Maybe it's not such a bad maxim if you live in North Korea or you were born without a spine or the only conversations you have with people is at Tupperware parties, but for people who value the intelligent exchange of ideas, it is insultingly stupid. Obviously, you don't have to say negative things in a discourteous way or sink to the level of calling someone a grench, but do you really want to visit a forum that has the intellectual intensity of a baby shower?

Thanks for the critique, Pres. I think a lot of us battle tightness. Way back when I was in the Denver Potter's Guild we used to yell at each other, "Loosen up!" and I never could. Every pot was a test of how thin, how exact I could throw it and they were very thin and very exact but dead.

Jim
E pur si muove.

"But it does move," said Galileo under his breath.

#36 AtomicAxe

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 11:45 AM

I've asked a lot of ceramicists/potters/whatever what they consider themselves ... no one can give me a reply that is standard ... after a while I don't really care how many types of people are out there or what they call themselves ... I really only care what I consider myself.

A mud bug.

I will do production if I want, lord knows I have the experience. I will make ceramic art if I want. I will make mugs all day with none being the same and not save any of them if I want. Trying to label it as something specific is fine, but how many painters and sculpters really define themselves as that specific label ... not many and when I do see it, its a descriptive term they use to let the audience in front of them know a little more about what medium they use, so they know what to expect "i.e. I'm a water color painter" anything else is for a self inflated artist statement.

Pro vs Hobby is an idiosyncratic fallacy. Only thing that should matter is Do, or Do not. I know 'pros' that don't produce and I know 'hobbyists' that can out shine anyone ... Do you produce or don't you. The rest is all shades of grey and frivolous.

#37 Pres

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 12:21 PM


My father used to have a saying that often he didn't follow, but I remember it well. "If you can't say something nice/constructive about something, don't say anything at all", I often follow this rule when posting anywhere. It keeps me from abusing the anonymity of the web. So when you don't see a post of mine somewhere, understand often why, other times. . . I am either too naive, or not technical enough, or experienced enough to say anything.

BTW Offcenter, at the risk of sucking up to such a grench, I liked the mug. The comments well, first off I found that many times a leaning handle fits the hand better for a rt or lft hander, people buy mugs that way. Secondly, I throw very tight regular forms(boring) and am working hard to loosen up. I admire the flow of the form with the flow of the glaze, and the movement of the leaning handle fits with the form accent line. . . . . Just my humble opinion.


My father had a saying, too. Almost every time I began a sentence with "I wish...", he would say, "Wish in one hand and take a dump in the other and see which gets full first." So sorry to offend the delicate among you, but the hackneyed maxim "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all" makes even my father's crude saying seem intelligent when compared to it. Maybe it's not such a bad maxim if you live in North Korea or you were born without a spine or the only conversations you have with people is at Tupperware parties, but for people who value the intelligent exchange of ideas, it is insultingly stupid. Obviously, you don't have to say negative things in a discourteous way or sink to the level of calling someone a grench, but do you really want to visit a forum that has the intellectual intensity of a baby shower?

Thanks for the critique, Pres. I think a lot of us battle tightness. Way back when I was in the Denver Potter's Guild we used to yell at each other, "Loosen up!" and I never could. Every pot was a test of how thin, how exact I could throw it and they were very thin and very exact but dead.

Jim


So I tend to the constructive, not the argumentative, or, . . . I say nothing at all.

Simply retired teacher, not dead, living the dream. on and on and. . . . on. . . .                                                                                 http://picworkspottery.blogspot.com/


#38 OffCenter

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 01:31 PM

So I tend to the constructive, not the argumentative, or, . . . I say nothing at all.


So you consider name calling constructive?

Jim
E pur si muove.

"But it does move," said Galileo under his breath.

#39 trina

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 02:26 PM

at least he didn't say ginch....

#40 Pres

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 02:26 PM


So I tend to the constructive, not the argumentative, or, . . . I say nothing at all.


So you consider name calling constructive?

Jim


Name calling, more of a levity, take the critique for what it is, If my attempt at being light hearted hurts you so be it, it was only meant in jest. I'll tread much lighter if there is a next time.

Simply retired teacher, not dead, living the dream. on and on and. . . . on. . . .                                                                                 http://picworkspottery.blogspot.com/





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