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Teaching and studio work; accused of using the studio for financial gain


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#1 Chris Greeenman

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 09:21 AM

I work at a university in Alabama. Alabama has the Alabama Ethics Commission that regulates public employees. Part of the code of ethics states that an employee may not use facilities in order for financial gain. They force us to watch films on the subject and sign papers which state that we have not financially gained from our positions using public funds, property of materials. (not sure of exact wording as I type this) I have been fighting this with my chair off and on for too long. I have always felt that my students need to see work being done and produced so they can more fully grasp the potential of the medium and when I am working in the studio the differences in their work is marked. I have built my own studio at home and do most of my work there. I must say that my work takes a back seat to all of the duties of teaching four classes (only one multilevel class in clay) and other university obligations. Work at the school is mostly in the form of demo pieces and occasionally larger pieces as the kilns are larger there. My colleagues at other state schools have their studios at their school with no studio at their homes. My last correspondence with my chair indicated that even demo pieces were off limits??? Any suggestions on how to fight this conundrum?

#2 Pres

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 10:40 AM

I work at a university in Alabama. Alabama has the Alabama Ethics Commission that regulates public employees. Part of the code of ethics states that an employee may not use facilities in order for financial gain. They force us to watch films on the subject and sign papers which state that we have not financially gained from our positions using public funds, property of materials. (not sure of exact wording as I type this) I have been fighting this with my chair off and on for too long. I have always felt that my students need to see work being done and produced so they can more fully grasp the potential of the medium and when I am working in the studio the differences in their work is marked. I have built my own studio at home and do most of my work there. I must say that my work takes a back seat to all of the duties of teaching four classes (only one multilevel class in clay) and other university obligations. Work at the school is mostly in the form of demo pieces and occasionally larger pieces as the kilns are larger there. My colleagues at other state schools have their studios at their school with no studio at their homes. My last correspondence with my chair indicated that even demo pieces were off limits??? Any suggestions on how to fight this conundrum?


I did not fight this battle, as ethically I knew they were right. So I made certain the clay I ordered for school was different from home. I created many demonstration pieces in school, and most of those were donated to the school. some were made with my own clay at school, and I kept. Over the years I made probably 30 pieces in 36 years, and kept maybe 6. It is a tough situation, but I think you can find charities and other venues that will allow you to unload the pieces and kill two birds with one stone. I even used demo pieces as door prizes for the adult classes that I taught-all proceeds went into a school fund.

I was a HS teacher, so things were different, but be creative if you really feel you must demonstrate in classes. I find it interesting that you are having this problem as many of the professors I had over the years produced in studio, and I know they sold their work. A good teacher never let his work isolate him, where as poor teachers were to involved with their work to teach. We have all been there, and seen that.

Simply retired teacher, not dead, living the dream. on and on and. . . . on. . . .                                                                                 http://picworkspottery.blogspot.com/


#3 TJR

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 11:17 AM

Chris;
I feel your pain. Like Pres., I teach high school. At school I fire to Cone 06. I use commercial glazes. At home I fire reduction stoneware and porcelain to Cone 10. I make a few demo pieces at school, but I don't make anything to sell. These pieces usually stay around the art room until broken.
In art school, both my ceramic profs had big beautiful studios and they produced work which they sold. As the studio tech there, I also had a studio. Their justification [for the studio space], was that they put in long hours firing kilns etc. They were there on the weekends quite a bit-mostly doing their own work, but they were around if you needed help.
I don't think you can win this one. Concentrate on your own studio work, and keep everything separate.
TJR.

#4 justanassembler

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 02:55 PM

I work at a university in Alabama. Alabama has the Alabama Ethics Commission that regulates public employees. Part of the code of ethics states that an employee may not use facilities in order for financial gain. They force us to watch films on the subject and sign papers which state that we have not financially gained from our positions using public funds, property of materials. (not sure of exact wording as I type this) I have been fighting this with my chair off and on for too long. I have always felt that my students need to see work being done and produced so they can more fully grasp the potential of the medium and when I am working in the studio the differences in their work is marked. I have built my own studio at home and do most of my work there. I must say that my work takes a back seat to all of the duties of teaching four classes (only one multilevel class in clay) and other university obligations. Work at the school is mostly in the form of demo pieces and occasionally larger pieces as the kilns are larger there. My colleagues at other state schools have their studios at their school with no studio at their homes. My last correspondence with my chair indicated that even demo pieces were off limits??? Any suggestions on how to fight this conundrum?


start applying for other jobs, when you get a new job, be certain to let your administrators know why you're leaving. Otherwise you probably cant do much to fight it, since its part of an edict that comes down from a larger, state level body... I suppose you could try petitioning them for an exception or some such, but given their your chair's unwillingness to back you thus far, that seems unlikely.

#5 Natania Hume

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 07:25 PM

I agree in theory with much of the feedback here. However, I have family members who are college teachers, and they regularly work on articles, etc. from their school offices. Recently my sister contributed a chapter to a book which will be published. I don't know if she will get much monetary compensation from it (It is quite academic) but she might get a little. Is this off limits too, then? Doesnt this reflect well on the school if she has made an impressive contribution to her field? There is a difference between taking advantage of a situation and being a professional. If they hired a professional artist/potter/ceramicist, then they should understand that that person will be engaged in making work. I bring my own clay to school (high school again) to work with when I have to stay late for meetings, etc. and I often have students happen by and stay to watch me work and ask questions. This adds to their experience and it helps me get some of my own work done too. I guess I am using a bit of electricity to turn the wheel, and there is a little extra wear and tear on the wheel, but is it reasonable to begrudge that when it enhances the students' experiences, even if it is not during school hours, and as such potentially strengthen's the reputation of the institution? If they want quality professionals to stay, they should endeavor to help them advance their careers by being a bit flexible, in my humble opinion!

#6 Benzine

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 08:33 PM

A lot of what I make, examples/ demos and such, I toss back in reclaim, once I'm done. However, I do make mugs, for some of my Senior students, as Graduation gifts. Whether or not I should compensate the school, I don't know, but I do. I buy various supplies for the room, instead having the school do it.

I don't sell anything for profit though. But I tell the students, they sure can. If they want to sell any of their artwork, it's all profit on their part.
"Anything worth believing, is worth questioning"

#7 Marcia Selsor

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 07:06 AM

This is an ethical question posed to many state employees.
I made a lot of pots during my class demos. AT our Christmas sales my work was donated and used to take our Potters' Guild Student organization on trips like visiting the Bray Foundation or attending NCECA. I also donated to the campus Foundation, retirement presents, etc. My home studio was more for my personal work.

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#8 Pres

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 01:09 PM

A lot of what I make, examples/ demos and such, I toss back in reclaim, once I'm done. However, I do make mugs, for some of my Senior students, as Graduation gifts. Whether or not I should compensate the school, I don't know, but I do. I buy various supplies for the room, instead having the school do it.

I don't sell anything for profit though. But I tell the students, they sure can. If they want to sell any of their artwork, it's all profit on their part.


I used to have receipts for 2 to 3k of materials I purchased for the classroom. That was just the stuff I had receipts for. At the same time like you, I did grad gifts and I also made pots for fund raisers within the school. some of these were made at home, some were made at school. We had student auctions for years, and students sold work to staff and other students at these, actually raking in quite a bit of dough at times.

Simply retired teacher, not dead, living the dream. on and on and. . . . on. . . .                                                                                 http://picworkspottery.blogspot.com/


#9 JBaymore

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 01:30 PM

My colleagues at other state schools have their studios at their school with no studio at their homes. My last correspondence with my chair indicated that even demo pieces were off limits??? Any suggestions on how to fight this conundrum?


Hate to say it Chris, but if that pairing of statements exist, then the issue is not the State regulations, but YOUR chair. Apparently if the others are able to do this unimpeded and you are not, then there is apparently some latitude for sensible interpretation of the statutes in the State legislation. Which makes sense. The statuates like that are usually there to "prevent blatant abuse".

If your chair chooses to enforce this in a highly strict manner, then you have to ask yourself, WHY. Seems like two main potential answers to that question. One is that he/she is not happy with you for some OTHER reason and is trying to make your life miserable and is hoping that you'll quit (because, knowing you, your classroom duties are impeccable an above criticism and he/she can't hit you there). The second is that he/she is a bit of a narrow-minded "Rule Nazi". In either case, not a great working environment.

In either case.... I think you are between the classic rock and a hard place on this. Your choices seem to be to go over his/her head and try to appeal to a higher authority (Academic Dean, etc.), quit, or live with it.

Maybe bring in your own clay for your demos, your own wheel (and other tools) to work with, and don't use their glaze / slip materials or kilns to fire the stuff. Take it home and finish it. But of course you are IN their buildings when working and if the wheel is electric using their electricity..... so that might be an issue if the person is a total fascist about things.

It is a shame to see the students get less than the experience they could have had while in school. A practicing, professional role model is important for art students to have around.

best,

.......................john
John Baymore
Immediate Past President; Potters Council
Professor of Ceramics; New Hampshire Insitute of Art

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#10 Benzine

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 09:32 PM


A lot of what I make, examples/ demos and such, I toss back in reclaim, once I'm done. However, I do make mugs, for some of my Senior students, as Graduation gifts. Whether or not I should compensate the school, I don't know, but I do. I buy various supplies for the room, instead having the school do it.

I don't sell anything for profit though. But I tell the students, they sure can. If they want to sell any of their artwork, it's all profit on their part.


I used to have receipts for 2 to 3k of materials I purchased for the classroom. That was just the stuff I had receipts for. At the same time like you, I did grad gifts and I also made pots for fund raisers within the school. some of these were made at home, some were made at school. We had student auctions for years, and students sold work to staff and other students at these, actually raking in quite a bit of dough at times.


I don't keep any receipts for the purchased materials. Not that I care, because as I mentioned, it squares me, for making the grad gifts. I like making those, as they are something different and unique. I like to give them something they can use. I make a pretty good sized mug, so they can use it for the three college student staples; coffee, cereal and ramen noodles.......There's a fourth college staple, that I'll pretend my mugs are never used for....
I just make the students promise, the mugs are actually used, and not put on a shelf, for fear of damaging them.
"Anything worth believing, is worth questioning"

#11 Pres

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 10:28 AM



A lot of what I make, examples/ demos and such, I toss back in reclaim, once I'm done. However, I do make mugs, for some of my Senior students, as Graduation gifts. Whether or not I should compensate the school, I don't know, but I do. I buy various supplies for the room, instead having the school do it.

I don't sell anything for profit though. But I tell the students, they sure can. If they want to sell any of their artwork, it's all profit on their part.


I used to have receipts for 2 to 3k of materials I purchased for the classroom. That was just the stuff I had receipts for. At the same time like you, I did grad gifts and I also made pots for fund raisers within the school. some of these were made at home, some were made at school. We had student auctions for years, and students sold work to staff and other students at these, actually raking in quite a bit of dough at times.


I don't keep any receipts for the purchased materials. Not that I care, because as I mentioned, it squares me, for making the grad gifts. I like making those, as they are something different and unique. I like to give them something they can use. I make a pretty good sized mug, so they can use it for the three college student staples; coffee, cereal and ramen noodles.......There's a fourth college staple, that I'll pretend my mugs are never used for....
I just make the students promise, the mugs are actually used, and not put on a shelf, for fear of damaging them.


I should have said those receipts were used for taxes! I didn't get any money back, but sure as heck counted it off on my taxes! I told my grads to use the mugs and to think of me when they did, hoping it wasn't in a drunken oops drinking moment!

Simply retired teacher, not dead, living the dream. on and on and. . . . on. . . .                                                                                 http://picworkspottery.blogspot.com/


#12 Benzine

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 05:37 PM




A lot of what I make, examples/ demos and such, I toss back in reclaim, once I'm done. However, I do make mugs, for some of my Senior students, as Graduation gifts. Whether or not I should compensate the school, I don't know, but I do. I buy various supplies for the room, instead having the school do it.

I don't sell anything for profit though. But I tell the students, they sure can. If they want to sell any of their artwork, it's all profit on their part.


I used to have receipts for 2 to 3k of materials I purchased for the classroom. That was just the stuff I had receipts for. At the same time like you, I did grad gifts and I also made pots for fund raisers within the school. some of these were made at home, some were made at school. We had student auctions for years, and students sold work to staff and other students at these, actually raking in quite a bit of dough at times.


I don't keep any receipts for the purchased materials. Not that I care, because as I mentioned, it squares me, for making the grad gifts. I like making those, as they are something different and unique. I like to give them something they can use. I make a pretty good sized mug, so they can use it for the three college student staples; coffee, cereal and ramen noodles.......There's a fourth college staple, that I'll pretend my mugs are never used for....
I just make the students promise, the mugs are actually used, and not put on a shelf, for fear of damaging them.


I should have said those receipts were used for taxes! I didn't get any money back, but sure as heck counted it off on my taxes! I told my grads to use the mugs and to think of me when they did, hoping it wasn't in a drunken oops drinking moment!


My students always seem excited to use the mugs for cereal and such......at least that's what they tell me. The only time, that I need it would be used otherwise, is when I went to a grad party, and handed the gift to the student. He had a beer in his hand, and proceeded to put the can inside the mug, using it like a can coozie. I just shook my head and moved along.
"Anything worth believing, is worth questioning"

#13 Diane Puckett

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 06:06 PM

I agree in theory with much of the feedback here. However, I have family members who are college teachers, and they regularly work on articles, etc. from their school offices. Recently my sister contributed a chapter to a book which will be published. I don't know if she will get much monetary compensation from it (It is quite academic) but she might get a little. Is this off limits too, then? Doesnt this reflect well on the school if she has made an impressive contribution to her field? There is a difference between taking advantage of a situation and being a professional. If they hired a professional artist/potter/ceramicist, then they should understand that that person will be engaged in making work. I bring my own clay to school (high school again) to work with when I have to stay late for meetings, etc. and I often have students happen by and stay to watch me work and ask questions. This adds to their experience and it helps me get some of my own work done too. I guess I am using a bit of electricity to turn the wheel, and there is a little extra wear and tear on the wheel, but is it reasonable to begrudge that when it enhances the students' experiences, even if it is not during school hours, and as such potentially strengthen's the reputation of the institution? If they want quality professionals to stay, they should endeavor to help them advance their careers by being a bit flexible, in my humble opinion!

I am not a lawyer, but this may fall under intellectual property law. I think that has something to do with work created during working hours being the intellectual property of the employer. I have heard of that in relation to written material and music but have not before thought of it in relation to tangible art.

Considering things such as extra time spent working and donation of supplies seem that they would balance out things and make them fair, but fair and legal are not always the same thing.
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#14 JBaymore

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 07:16 PM

Considering things such as extra time spent working and donation of supplies seem that they would balance out things and make them fair, but fair and legal are not always the same thing.


Bingo.... it is the "intellectual property" situation. But you hit the crux of the matter with the "fair" comments. Which is why I feel that the issue is Chris's supervisor/dept. chair/dean in this case... not the law itself. Frequently people choose which "battles" to actually go after........ and situations like this get overlooked unless there is blatant abuse. Particularly with the typical paychecks that arts related folks tend to get.

And yeah... some universities do "own" the research outcomes that their science professors develop..... and make a lot of money off of it.

Some corporate and academic contracts stipulate that even if the work is done ON YOUR OWN TIME (not at the work premises or during normal working hours), the parent company or the school "owns" any results you might develop. It is preposterous.

best,

..................john
John Baymore
Immediate Past President; Potters Council
Professor of Ceramics; New Hampshire Insitute of Art

http://www.JohnBaymore.com

#15 Benzine

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 08:39 AM

You're right John, that is just ridiculous. That's about as close as you can get to selling your soul. I can understand an institution, not wanting its workers to focus their time and energy on their own endeavors, during business hours, especially a school, where the focus should be on the student learning. But stipulating, that anything they do, is property of the institution, is beyond absurd.
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#16 Pres

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 09:52 AM

You're right John, that is just ridiculous. That's about as close as you can get to selling your soul. I can understand an institution, not wanting its workers to focus their time and energy on their own endeavors, during business hours, especially a school, where the focus should be on the student learning. But stipulating, that anything they do, is property of the institution, is beyond absurd.


When in grad school, I was interested in seeing what the work of a professor looked like and not just from looking him up in the library or journals. It was always inspiring to see how an art professor would approach a problem, whether it was a watercolor, Oil painting, piece of jewelry, or a piece of pottery. Seeing the process, and the way they would approach the medium was great to see. It also helped to understand their criticisms to know where they were coming from. Why are demonstrations so popular at conferences! I would think that the good of the school would encourage such demonstrating to see the alpha and omega of a piece. Where it started and where it ended in completion ready for use or framing.

Simply retired teacher, not dead, living the dream. on and on and. . . . on. . . .                                                                                 http://picworkspottery.blogspot.com/


#17 Benzine

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 10:18 AM


You're right John, that is just ridiculous. That's about as close as you can get to selling your soul. I can understand an institution, not wanting its workers to focus their time and energy on their own endeavors, during business hours, especially a school, where the focus should be on the student learning. But stipulating, that anything they do, is property of the institution, is beyond absurd.


When in grad school, I was interested in seeing what the work of a professor looked like and not just from looking him up in the library or journals. It was always inspiring to see how an art professor would approach a problem, whether it was a watercolor, Oil painting, piece of jewelry, or a piece of pottery. Seeing the process, and the way they would approach the medium was great to see. It also helped to understand their criticisms to know where they were coming from. Why are demonstrations so popular at conferences! I would think that the good of the school would encourage such demonstrating to see the alpha and omega of a piece. Where it started and where it ended in completion ready for use or framing.


Yes indeed. My Ceramics instructor in college, was an adjunct. Along with teaching the college class, he was also a teacher at a local junior high. As I was going into education as well, I respected that he balanced both things. I also think, it made him a better instructor, and he related to the students very well. The department head, on the other hand, seemed a little cold. Another reason I respected him, is because he could throw like none other. He was good, and always had constructive criticism for those of us, who weren't so good initially. One of my favorite comments of his, was when he was evaluating one of my mugs. His analysis, "Well, this is insulated." An apt analysis, because it was pretty thick.
The department head, on the other hand, wasn't quite as good on the wheel, as she is more of a sculpture person. While seeing an instructor struggle, with the same problems, as the students, can make the students less frustrated, with their own abilities, it also makes them feel like they don't have someone they can turn to, for answers. This would be even more true, if the instructor wasn't able to show their work/ process at all. "I'd love to show you how to do this, but the administration won't let me." Simply helping the students, on their own projects, isn't enough, especially since I don't like to do the work for you. What does that teach them? For drawing, I'll usually sketch it on a separate piece of paper, instead of on their final drawing surface. For the 3-D arts, it's tougher. I'll tend to explain it, then show them how to start. But if I'm able to show them the whole, process on my example, it's far more effective.
"Anything worth believing, is worth questioning"

#18 Diane Puckett

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 10:20 AM

I worked with a musician who knew to have this resolved in his employment contract. He wanted to be able to write music to be used on that job but still own the music. Wise move on his part.
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#19 Pres

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 09:56 PM



You're right John, that is just ridiculous. That's about as close as you can get to selling your soul. I can understand an institution, not wanting its workers to focus their time and energy on their own endeavors, during business hours, especially a school, where the focus should be on the student learning. But stipulating, that anything they do, is property of the institution, is beyond absurd.


When in grad school, I was interested in seeing what the work of a professor looked like and not just from looking him up in the library or journals. It was always inspiring to see how an art professor would approach a problem, whether it was a watercolor, Oil painting, piece of jewelry, or a piece of pottery. Seeing the process, and the way they would approach the medium was great to see. It also helped to understand their criticisms to know where they were coming from. Why are demonstrations so popular at conferences! I would think that the good of the school would encourage such demonstrating to see the alpha and omega of a piece. Where it started and where it ended in completion ready for use or framing.


Yes indeed. My Ceramics instructor in college, was an adjunct. Along with teaching the college class, he was also a teacher at a local junior high. As I was going into education as well, I respected that he balanced both things. I also think, it made him a better instructor, and he related to the students very well. The department head, on the other hand, seemed a little cold. Another reason I respected him, is because he could throw like none other. He was good, and always had constructive criticism for those of us, who weren't so good initially. One of my favorite comments of his, was when he was evaluating one of my mugs. His analysis, "Well, this is insulated." An apt analysis, because it was pretty thick.
The department head, on the other hand, wasn't quite as good on the wheel, as she is more of a sculpture person. While seeing an instructor struggle, with the same problems, as the students, can make the students less frustrated, with their own abilities, it also makes them feel like they don't have someone they can turn to, for answers. This would be even more true, if the instructor wasn't able to show their work/ process at all. "I'd love to show you how to do this, but the administration won't let me." Simply helping the students, on their own projects, isn't enough, especially since I don't like to do the work for you. What does that teach them? For drawing, I'll usually sketch it on a separate piece of paper, instead of on their final drawing surface. For the 3-D arts, it's tougher. I'll tend to explain it, then show them how to start. But if I'm able to show them the whole, process on my example, it's far more effective.


Right on, never work on a student drawing or painting as irreversible. Even on the pottery, don't throw for the student. I did skip a few steps here and there when loading a kiln, finding a rough edge, a bet of glaze on the bottom. I usually cleaned it up. always told the students, but most of the time it was in defense of the kiln shelves. I always had an easy time showing someone how to make a certain type of line, use a tool or use a brush on a leather hard slab with slip-always had some spares around somewhere. Good teaching requires good demonstrations and reinforcements.

Simply retired teacher, not dead, living the dream. on and on and. . . . on. . . .                                                                                 http://picworkspottery.blogspot.com/


#20 Benzine

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 09:43 AM




You're right John, that is just ridiculous. That's about as close as you can get to selling your soul. I can understand an institution, not wanting its workers to focus their time and energy on their own endeavors, during business hours, especially a school, where the focus should be on the student learning. But stipulating, that anything they do, is property of the institution, is beyond absurd.


When in grad school, I was interested in seeing what the work of a professor looked like and not just from looking him up in the library or journals. It was always inspiring to see how an art professor would approach a problem, whether it was a watercolor, Oil painting, piece of jewelry, or a piece of pottery. Seeing the process, and the way they would approach the medium was great to see. It also helped to understand their criticisms to know where they were coming from. Why are demonstrations so popular at conferences! I would think that the good of the school would encourage such demonstrating to see the alpha and omega of a piece. Where it started and where it ended in completion ready for use or framing.


Yes indeed. My Ceramics instructor in college, was an adjunct. Along with teaching the college class, he was also a teacher at a local junior high. As I was going into education as well, I respected that he balanced both things. I also think, it made him a better instructor, and he related to the students very well. The department head, on the other hand, seemed a little cold. Another reason I respected him, is because he could throw like none other. He was good, and always had constructive criticism for those of us, who weren't so good initially. One of my favorite comments of his, was when he was evaluating one of my mugs. His analysis, "Well, this is insulated." An apt analysis, because it was pretty thick.
The department head, on the other hand, wasn't quite as good on the wheel, as she is more of a sculpture person. While seeing an instructor struggle, with the same problems, as the students, can make the students less frustrated, with their own abilities, it also makes them feel like they don't have someone they can turn to, for answers. This would be even more true, if the instructor wasn't able to show their work/ process at all. "I'd love to show you how to do this, but the administration won't let me." Simply helping the students, on their own projects, isn't enough, especially since I don't like to do the work for you. What does that teach them? For drawing, I'll usually sketch it on a separate piece of paper, instead of on their final drawing surface. For the 3-D arts, it's tougher. I'll tend to explain it, then show them how to start. But if I'm able to show them the whole, process on my example, it's far more effective.


Right on, never work on a student drawing or painting as irreversible. Even on the pottery, don't throw for the student. I did skip a few steps here and there when loading a kiln, finding a rough edge, a bet of glaze on the bottom. I usually cleaned it up. always told the students, but most of the time it was in defense of the kiln shelves. I always had an easy time showing someone how to make a certain type of line, use a tool or use a brush on a leather hard slab with slip-always had some spares around somewhere. Good teaching requires good demonstrations and reinforcements.



I'm with you on that. If I needed to get a firing done, I'd clean up edges, especially if I knew, they'd turn out sharp. And my general rule is, nothing goes in the kiln, with glaze on, or within an eight of an inch of the bottom. I'd always have students asking, why something didn't get fired. Then I'd kindly ask them to check the bottom, and see if they could figure it out. However, much like I said before, I needed to get a full load, and we were running out of time in the course, I'd clean up the bottom. Or there were other times, where they glazed, exactly how I asked, but I'd think, "That glaze just might run a bit", so I'd remove a bit.

So would doing such a demo, be against the rules, of some of the institutions we have been discussing?
"Anything worth believing, is worth questioning"




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