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#1 Red Rocks

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 08:10 PM

I just finished reading Nils Lou's book on kilns and firing. In one of the chapters he discusses the fuel efficiency advantages of using ITC coatings on the inside of a kiln, advantages which are widely known (up to 30% reduction in fuel). Not so widely known, he also discusses using ITC on kiln shelves, I will summarize his comments below:



He recommends applying ITC100HT to kiln shelves and firing them twice. He then adds ITC296A as a top coat and fires again. He says that this will upgrade the common cordierite shelf from a rating of 2282F to 2462F and significantly extend its life. The shelf will not warp and it does not require kiln wash.



Has anyone on the forum had successful experience with this approach? If you have, one important detail he leaves out – is he putting the coating on both sides of the shelf and flipping them or does coating one side suffice?



I have sent him an email as well in the hopes he will respond and clear this up for me. It sure sounds promising.





#2 LilyT

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 12:08 AM

Red Rocks, I am interested in what you find out, too! I have gotten
advice that the ITC100 does in fact extend the life of refractories, and
am planning to use it on all [non SiC] faces that are exposed to heat in my
atmospheric kiln. The kiln roof will be cordierite shelves, coated
with ITC.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and information!

-Lily




#3 Marcia Selsor

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 12:37 AM

Linda Blossom put ITC on her tile setter rods that were not rated for cone six. They worked fine, never slumped.
She coated everything with ITC 100 including her burner tips.
She did early research with others with Feriz giving people ITC to experiment with.
Nils Lou did a demo at NCECA way back with ITC on plywood and fired it as a kiln.
ITC reflects heat.
Marcia

#4 Red Rocks

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 08:27 PM

I did hear back from Nils Lou today and he confirmed that the ITC coatings will work equally well with Cordierite, CoreLite (hollow core) or the nitride bonded silicon carbide shelves. It will increase their temperature ratings as described in my original post and make them pretty much warp free. He also suggested on the CoreLites to dip them in a thin solution of the ITC100HT so that all surfaces are covered equally. He also confirmed the 20-30% fuel reduction when using it to coat the inside of a kiln.

The only reason I raised the question about the information is that the book was written quite some time ago and I wanted to verify it. It is nice to have him confirm it directly. I would definitely put both of these ideas in the no-brainer category.



#5 JBaymore

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 09:02 PM

I would definitely put both of these ideas in the no-brainer category.


I have yet to see ANY really controlled scientific type study work done in this or anything else relative to the astounding claims for ITC performance. All of the evidence that I have ever seen is anecdotal.

I personally have used this stuff on numeropus installations for various purposes, and can say some general things about the material's performane, but as to scientific accuracy of those statements, or anyone else's comments, I cannot give anything with any solid science behind it.

Until there is some serious data and independent 3rd party analysis published by someone.... I'd say take all such recommendations with a grain of salt.

I'd love to have the budget and time to do a controlled study, with a control group and accurate measuring devices, of kiln firing energy savings with the ITC products. And comparing to to other possible refractory coatings. If somene has some real money (a few thousands of dollars needed)... let's do this. I can provide the structuring of the testing series.

Think about this....... if this stuff was "god's gift to energy savings" and "god's gift to taking less expensive refractories and making them perform like more expensive refractories", not only would every handcraft ceramic manufacturer of kilns be using it on all their units, but it would be dominating the entire ceramic manufacturing industry all over the world. Look at Ceramic Industry magazine over the past 20 years or so. No mention of ITC to speak of.

Anecdotally, from my expeiences it appears to change the emissivity and/or reflectivity of the refractory surface. It seals the pores and m akes a refractory surface less gas permeable. When placed on metal, it appears to form a thin ceramic shell coating, seemingly protecting the underlying metal (usually electric kiln elements). When put on soft IFB it appears to seal the surface pores, decreasing teh refractory surface area and somewhat resisting the action of a high soda kiln atmosphere.

Here is their current incarnation website for ITC... since the product line was sold to a differnt company:

https://secure.anvil...hnical_Ceramics

Note that this is not a huge major metalurgy or ceramic industry site... but more of a small business operation. Seems a bit like it is targeted at the "craft" side of things more than the industrial side.

Industry listings:

http://www.industryn...al-ceramics-inc

http://www.corporati.../101327434.aspx

Try tracking down the new owner ....... Womack Industries, LLC in Texas. Now if this product was fully what it was purported to be, wouldn't you expect it to have been sold to a really large ceramic or metal or industrial supply company?
This seems like a very small company listing.

If you go here : http://www.lookupboo...-industries-llc

or here: https://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en

And if you zoom in on the hybrid view of the maps on that site... it is looking like a very residential location, not an "industrial park" kind of place. In fact, Google Maps has a "pin" for the address on a small storage shed in the middle of an empty lot ;) .

FYI........ Here are other businesses at the same address....... http://www.corporati...-a29887730.aspx

If you look at the MSDS sheets for something like ITC-100HT posted on that website, it is a very poorly completed form. If you doubt that thought, run it by Industrial Hygienist and arts specialist Mononna Rossol at the A.C.T.S NY website and sse what she says. One of the least informative MSDSs I've seen for its intended purpose. Clearly they do not want people to know anything about what is in there.

best,

.................john
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#6 Red Rocks

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 07:41 PM

John thanks for your input and perspective on this subject. Given that I am sorta a "reborn", a newbie and an old potter all rolled into one - I will take your advice and take Nils input on ITC with a grain of salt. However, I am an eternal optimist and have to believe that someone with Nil’s reputation is not presenting a pipedream and that his results are based upon him actually testing the products.

I will be installing an Olson Kiln Kit in Dec or Jan, so I will definitely plan to fire it a few times before I try the ITC coatings on the kiln and the shelves. Not real scientific, but it will give me a clear “before and after” on the results. The cost to try it is marginal at best and even if I only get half the results claimed, it is still a significant advantage.

I will most definitely post the results on this forum.

#7 bciskepottery

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 09:28 PM

"Here is their current incarnation website for ITC... since the product line was sold to a differnt company:

https://secure.anvil...hnical_Ceramics

Note that this is not a huge major metalurgy or ceramic industry site... but more of a small business operation. Seems a bit like it is targeted at the "craft" side of things more than the industrial side.

Industry listings:

http://www.industryn...al-ceramics-inc

http://www.corporati.../101327434.aspx

Try tracking down the new owner ....... Womack Industries, LLC in Texas. Now if this product was fully what it was purported to be, wouldn't you expect it to have been sold to a really large ceramic or metal or industrial supply company?
This seems like a very small company listing.

If you go here : http://www.lookupboo...-industries-llc

or here: https://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en

And if you zoom in on the hybrid view of the maps on that site... it is looking like a very residential location, not an "industrial park" kind of place. In fact, Google Maps has a "pin" for the address on a small storage shed in the middle of an empty lot Posted Image .

FYI........ Here are other businesses at the same address....... http://www.corporati...-a29887730.aspx

If you look at the MSDS sheets for something like ITC-100HT posted on that website, it is a very poorly completed form. If you doubt that thought, run it by Industrial Hygienist and arts specialist Mononna Rossol at the A.C.T.S NY website and sse what she says. One of the least informative MSDSs I've seen for its intended purpose. Clearly they do not want people to know anything about what is in there."


My only familiarity with ITC products is what I've read here, in Clayart, Nil's book, and Mel Jacobsen's book, 21st Century Kilns; no first hand experience. My sense is ITC was developed by an individual who kept the "secret" until recently. And, even though he provided the material to potters, he kept the details and how it worked to himself (not unlike some potters and their glaze recipes, eg. Otto Heino). He then sold it to another company. Nothing required him to sell it to a large conglomerate . . . nothing required him to sell it to the highest bidder. Perhaps his terms of sale requirements were that it continue to be kept low profile, available to individual potters, etc. rather than commercialized and focused on industrial users (which we as potters often complain when G200 becomes G200HP or the content of materials we use are changed and the mines don't tell us). Just encouraging you to keep an open mind about things, especially addresses (remember, Apple started in a garage . . . think how that would have looked on Google maps). And, lousy and non-informative MSDS sheets seem to be rather common for pottery materials (eg., the recent discussion of manganese dioxide in Standard 266).

I concede there are no scientific studies of ITC, but given the widespread anecdotal experiences of many potters who have used it, I would be inclined to give it (and them) fair consideration. Until we have such a study, all we have is their experience to guide and inform us.

#8 Mark C.

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 10:20 AM

[quote name='Red Rocks' date='05 October 2012 - 08:10 PM' timestamp='1349485809' post='23182']
I just finished reading Nils Lou's book on kilns and firing. In one of the chapters he discusses the fuel efficiency advantages of using ITC coatings on the inside of a kiln, advantages which are widely known (up to 30% reduction in fuel). Not so widely known, he also discusses using ITC on kiln shelves, I will summarize his comments below:



He recommends applying ITC100HT to kiln shelves and firing them twice. He then adds ITC296A as a top coat and fires again. He says that this will upgrade the common cordierite shelf from a rating of 2282F to 2462F and significantly extend its life. The shelf will not warp and it does not require kiln wash.



Has anyone on the forum had successful experience with this approach? If you have, one important detail he leaves out – is he putting the coating on both sides of the shelf and flipping them or does coating one side suffice?



I have sent him an email as well in the hopes he will respond and clear this up for me. It sure sounds promising.


I many years ago coated (on all sides) a few 1 inch 12x24 mullite shelve with ITC-These at cone 11 reduction always warped fairly quickly.This was after reading Lou,s book. I had at that time switched from silicon carbide shelves to dry pressed english shelves-which held up the best but are very heavy.
The two tested shelves did not warp for a long time (like 30 glaze fires) and where way better as they did warp over long time but not as much. At that time i did 45 glaze fires in car kiln per year

I do not know anything abut energy savings as I have not paid ay attention to that issue.-after this mullite test I coated all my english shelves with ITC and they held up way better than without it at cone 11.
Since then (about 15-18 years ) ago I switched out to advancers and they do not benefit from ITC

Using porcelain my pots always stick to shelves but with the ITC on them I did not wash them. I did not top coat them with 296A.
I have used them in slat kiln for years as well but thats another story.
Mark
Mark Cortright
www.liscomhillpottery.com

#9 Don Kopyscinski

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 04:38 PM

I would definitely put both of these ideas in the no-brainer category.


<<I have yet to see ANY really controlled scientific type study work done in this or anything else relative to the astounding claims for ITC performance. All of the evidence that I have ever seen is anecdotal.

I personally have used this stuff on numeropus installations for various purposes, and can say some general things about the material's performane, but as to scientific accuracy of those statements, or anyone else's comments, I cannot give anything with any solid science behind it.

Until there is some serious data and independent 3rd party analysis published by someone.... I'd say take all such recommendations with a grain of salt.>>


.................john


Hi John,
I came upon your post while web surfing last night. Several years ago I did my own experiment with ITC100. I don't claim the results to be the definitive answer, but this is what I came up with.

http://www.potters.o...ubject13066.htm

Don Kopyscinski
Bear Hills Pottery

donkopy@aol.com

#10 yedrow

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 10:24 PM

John makes some outstanding points. I can't imagine how a material that is applied so thin, yet by a hand pump sprayer (very irregular thicknesses likely), can do so much work. The environment of the inside of a firing kiln is like the weather, no two firings are any more alike than two days. Any experiment that would yield meaningful data on so complex an environment would have to be very strictly controlled. Anecdotal information drawn from complex systems like a kiln and its load can only be accurate by accident.

Joel.

#11 neilestrick

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 05:07 PM

Here's a recent thread on ITC in electric kilns.
Neil Estrick
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#12 Red Rocks

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 11:02 PM

John

Is there anyway to integrate these two threads together...Alot of valuable discussion on two threads that has a ton of related information.

Wasn't sure where else to send this.

Thanks




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