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#1 Mark C.

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Posted 22 June 2012 - 02:23 AM

Thought I would write up a article on this later for CM so heres a preview with much left out.
We made a gas salt kiln here about 12 years ago-we fire it for fun ( not production work) about once a year with a group of potters.
My best friend is an expert wielder (Petter Brant) so he did the wields with my buzz box
I stated this kiln in collage art program-poured the slab and got a 199 credit for that -I later graduated that year(1976) and within 1o-15 years put the 100 feet of 2 inch gas line out to slab. Thought about a well drafting roof for about 25 years and knew what I wanted-we build this low sloped wing shape with non rustable materials put a stainless steel chimney on it with a stainless rain gutter.
We group fire this yearly as a social treat especial for newbies to salt.
I really like salt in the 70's at art school and always wanted my own-this was the 1st salt kiln in Humboldt County since the school one was closed down by the fire dept in the really 70s at our last firing with it.This kiln has some innovative material uses.
I made the buttons for the fiber.
Mark

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#2 Marcia Selsor

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Posted 22 June 2012 - 07:39 AM

That is a beauty , Mark!
Looking forward to the article. Do you think Pottery making Illustrated might be another option for publication? CM seems to be going in a different direction. Same publisher.
Marcia

#3 TJR

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Posted 22 June 2012 - 12:04 PM

It's a beauty, Mark! Some questions;
How does the salt affect the fiberfax?
Is that you in the picture? Which one?
Tom[TJR].
I AM REALIZING THAT I AM GOING TO HAVE TO UPLOAD SOME PICS.oops, caps loclk on again. I wasn't yelling.

#4 Mark C.

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Posted 22 June 2012 - 12:54 PM

It's a beauty, Mark! Some questions;
How does the salt affect the fiberfax?
Is that you in the picture? Which one?
Tom[TJR].
I AM REALIZING THAT I AM GOING TO HAVE TO UPLOAD SOME PICS.oops, caps loclk on again. I wasn't yelling.


I'm on the right with the fish shirt
Yes salt eats the fiber so you need to coat it as well as the soft bricks -we used ITC at first and now I have developed my own coating which I may some day try to sell-as its works great resisting salt-it took a few years to develop it and its the one thing I will not share.
This kiln is 10 years old now and we have learned a lot from it-I have a few tweaks that I would do different-Its cheap to fire 42$ last fire The target bricks that we spray salt into kiln all need to be hard brick. The door because it swings 360 around in its frame is the best door I have ever made.
This was my 10th kiln build from scratch. But it was over time so we got the details right. This one is up high and easy on the back to load-two shelves deep with a load in wood board that fits over the door jambs.
Mark
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#5 LilyT

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 02:07 AM

That's awesome, Mark! How high above the kiln did you have to put the
roof so there would be no heat issues?
That is a great door!
-Lily

#6 Mark C.

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 04:13 PM

The roof is 3 to 4 feet above-but the kiln is so well insulated on top there is hardly any heat on top-The lid is 9 inches of fiber with another 2-3 inches then a metal lid on top-This is warm only to the touch when at cone 10.<div><br></div><div>Thinking weather anyone even builds kiln anymore-seems like many just buy electric and fire to c 6 these days.The knowledge and work of that may be a bygone era.</div><div>Kiln building is WORK and many now days do not want to learn those skills</div><div>The article may just &nbsp;have to be historical in nature.</div><div>Mark</div>


This also is what the software does to a post on CAD.
I'll clean it up in a few days so you can read it
Mark
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#7 neilestrick

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 04:39 PM

Thinking weather anyone even builds kiln anymore-seems like many just buy electric and fire to c 6 these days.The knowledge and work of that may be a bygone era.</div><div>Kiln building is WORK and many now days do not want to learn those skills</div><div>The article may just &nbsp;have to be historical in nature.</div><div>Mark</div>
Mark


I have to admit that I am one of those people who has gone the way of electric. I learned to fire gas my very first semester of ceramics in college, fired wood and salt all through grad school. I have built a few kilns and burner systems and wood kilns. I switched to cone 6 electric 4 years ago, and I can honestly say I wish I had done it sooner. For my aesthetic and my business situation it is ideal. In no way do I regret having learned all about high fire reduction, and in no way do I think I wasted any time doing it, but it's just way too time and space consuming for me to do it now. My biggest regret is that cone 6 was not really presented as a worthwhile option when I was in school in the 90's. We were taught to be cone 10 snobs. That said, cone 6 was kind of ugly back then. It has come a long way in the last 10 years and is, in my opinion, generally much more attractive now. I think my cone 10 glaze formulation experience has helped me a lot with cone 6 formulation, since I tend to not rely on boron as much as the old cone 6 glazes did.

It's also much more difficult and expensive to build gas kilns now than it was 20 years ago. Local laws are very prohibitive unless you live in the country or have your own business in a freestanding commercial building. 8 years ago my gas line and venting system cost as much as 3 electric kilns with vents and furniture. It's even more expensive now, and the rules for venting and fire codes and such are even more strict. I spent about $18,000 building and plumbing and venting my gas kiln 8 years ago. 4 years later when I moved my shop to a different location it was going to cost me another $16,000 just to have the venting moved to the new building and have a new gas line run. That's when I went electric.

I hope schools keep teaching cone 10 reduction, because it is a very important piece of knowledge to have. But I think if they really want to prepare their students for pottery life after college, they also need to teach cone 6 oxidation. It's the easiest, most cost effective, most realistic way for people to continue making pots right after they graduate.
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#8 JBaymore

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 04:55 PM

Thinking weather anyone even builds kiln anymore-seems like many just buy electric and fire to c 6 these days.The knowledge and work of that may be a bygone era. Kiln building is WORK and many now days do not want to learn those skills.


I build custom kilns for others.....and when I need to for myself.

Our NHIA college curriculum requires everyone that graduates with a BFA to take and pass my course on kiln design, operation, and building....... they get the basic skills they need to do it....from how to deal with legalities and regulations to how to lay bricks. Also how to ealuate commercial equipment. Whether they build kilns when they leave is up to them. We believe that this is an important component of a professional level of education of a ceramist.


We also teach about low fire as well as high fire. And they are required to take and pass a ceramic chemistry course as well. Students present work with china paints, pit fired, low fired, midrange, stoneware, soda, and sometimes woodfired. If we teach them the concepts behind the ceramic process, and that there ARE multiple ways to work, we do not have to "teach" cone 10 or cone 6 or cone 04. We just teach ceramics.

Too many educational programs are unfortunately not offering this kind of information. Plus the world is getting so restrictive as far as governmental folks trying to control what everyone does..... so it makes it harder to site-build kilns in many locations.

best,

........................john
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#9 Mark C.

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 10:21 PM

Kiln building and building inspectors are a bad mix-get your inspections done before kiln is built my friend says.Most counties just do not know any thing about kilns-
Call them bread ovens.
Mark
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#10 TJR

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 10:39 PM

Kiln building and building inspectors are a bad mix-get your inspections done before kiln is built my friend says.Most counties just do not know any thing about kilns-
Call them bread ovens.
Mark


Mark;
Our clay supplier in town moved to a bigger warehouse. They built a new stoneware kiln,but had so many hassles with the inspector that they gave up. I don't know anyone who has an indoor stoneware kiln built recently other than the university. I guess that's why a lot of potters live in the country.
TJR.

#11 LilyT

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Posted 27 June 2012 - 02:57 AM

Well, Mark's kiln is terrific, and also terrific that it doesn't throw off much heat through the top!

However, the rest of the comments about the exorbitant expense and regulatory strictures
on gas and atmospheric kilns is totally depressing :-(. The kilns that I know about generally
fly under the radar, but you cannot be a working potter and only fire intermittently... Glad
there are still some of you out there doing and teaching this stuff.

#12 neilestrick

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Posted 27 June 2012 - 10:21 AM

Kiln building and building inspectors are a bad mix-get your inspections done before kiln is built my friend says.Most counties just do not know any thing about kilns-
Call them bread ovens.
Mark


I get what you're saying, but that's a great way to get your really expensive kiln shut down and rendered useless. When your spending thousands of dollars and your business depends on being able to fire the kiln, you've got to do it all legally. In my town the main issues had nothing to do with the kiln itself, but rather preventing the spread of fire and air quality. The building I first built my kiln in was all concrete and freestanding. So fire was not an issue. They checked all the numbers on the venting system, though, to make sure the air in the kiln room was breathable. When I was moving my building into a new space that was not freestanding, there were issues with the fire rating of the wall between me and my neighbor. They were going to make me add at least one more layer of drywall to the wall separating our spaces to increase the fire rating. They don't mind if you burn down your own shop, but you can't burn down the neighbor's.
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#13 Mark C.

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Posted 27 June 2012 - 02:58 PM


Kiln building and building inspectors are a bad mix-get your inspections done before kiln is built my friend says.Most counties just do not know any thing about kilns-
Call them bread ovens.
Mark


I get what you're saying, but that's a great way to get your really expensive kiln shut down and rendered useless. When your spending thousands of dollars and your business depends on being able to fire the kiln, you've got to do it all legally. In my town the main issues had nothing to do with the kiln itself, but rather preventing the spread of fire and air quality. The building I first built my kiln in was all concrete and freestanding. So fire was not an issue. They checked all the numbers on the venting system, though, to make sure the air in the kiln room was breathable. When I was moving my building into a new space that was not freestanding, there were issues with the fire rating of the wall between me and my neighbor. They were going to make me add at least one more layer of drywall to the wall separating our spaces to increase the fire rating. They don't mind if you burn down your own shop, but you can't burn down the neighbor's.


Neil
Every situation is unique as far as this goes-If as you did -want an urban business with the public coming for classes you need to be above board. In some places you just need to realize that that may not be possible in all buildings-codes -counties and states all vary- sounds like it worked out for you there so what worked for you there does not work for someone say in Houston Texas.
If you are a rural potter like me dealing with the regs they are not like they used to be. I have a book full of stories from full time potters like me who moved and could not get set up under current regs in different states and counties within same state. Thats just the way it is-That said just about anywhere USA you can plug in your electric and go. I'm talking about GAS kilns and permits to use them. I know a guy how after a 3 year process just quit with the city he lives in-The Hoops where just TO MUCH-thats the way its going now. I can say that most find about about all this the HARD way first. Here they do care about you burning just your building down unless you have a 215 card and its a grow house but thats off topic. Most of this conversation relates to outside gas kilns not even ones inside which is about triple the hoops to jump thru.

Maybe this is one reason cone 6 electrics are what folks are doing.
Mark
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#14 neilestrick

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Posted 27 June 2012 - 04:20 PM

Mark,
I was talking about my gas kiln, too. This was all before I went electric. They really don't give a crap about my electric kilns since there's no combustion involved. I'm not saying what worked for me works for everyone. I realize that. But I'm of the opinion that no matter where you set up, rural or not, if you're going to spend the time and money to build a studio and gas kiln, it should be done above board. If you get shut down due to code violations, you've just wasted a ton of time and money and you're out of business. You can't assume anything. I spent months doing research on where I could have a gas kiln before I ever signed a lease, because the kiln is the foundation of my business.


There are some places you just can't have a gas kiln. But there are some places you can't have a welding shop, or a shoe factory, or a junk yard or a strip club. That's the way of business. We are producing an object for the retail market, and as such are subject to the same rules and regulations as any other factory, whether rural or urban. Although we see kilns as just another one of our tools, they really fall into the category of light-industrial equipment. A shop that heat treats metal or casts bronze is no different. Most places wouldn't let someone set up a foundry business in their back yard, so they don't allow pottery kilns, either. We have an emotional attachment to our process that the regulators don't. But business is business, and as soon as you start selling your work the game changes.

I don't mean to play the bad guy here. I love gas kilns, too. I do miss the firing process and the challenges that come with combustion. I also realize that I haven't seen the changes over the years like you probably have. Because I've only been in this as a business for 8 years I probably don't have the level of frustration that you do.

Good conversation....

Neil
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#15 Mark C.

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Posted 27 June 2012 - 11:37 PM

I'm not to frustrated as I already have my stuff going and the county knows about me after all I have been doing it at this location since 1973-We happen to be in the second most artist per capita county in California so all is well here. What/who this really affects is as you said the folks starting out-the expenses are so high and the regulations cost so much that its priced many out of startups with gas. Thats the real issue moving forward for high fire reduction- salt/soda wares-
I do agree about getting it all on the up and up when starting-I did but a lot has changed since then.
Mark
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#16 JBaymore

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Posted 28 June 2012 - 08:47 AM

I've been putting in kilns professionally since the mid 70's. Yes, a lot has changed. But it is not just in the ceramics field... a lot has changed in EVERYTHING to do with business. Reality burger..... hold the ketchup. It is just .... as they say.... "a cost of doing business" ;) .

Yes, putting in BIGGER kilns of any type costs more than the small electric kilns. The cost of a commercial 40 cubic foot electric kiln and a commercial 40 cubic foot gas kiln are not all that different. (Upgrading to the electrical service for that 40 cubic foot electric is not goiong to be cheap either.) Comparing costs of installation for a 7 cubic foot electric kiln and a 40 cubic foot gas kiln is kinda' like looking at a Smart Car and a dump truck. And firing costs and environmental impacts for multiple loads of a 7 cubic foot kiln to compare total load volume to the 40 cubic foot kiln are not very attractive either.....so that is a bad long term trade off idea.

I'm with Neil on this stuff......... illegal and "under the radar" installations are NOT the way to go for many, many reasons. One of them is the potential damage such actions will eventually have on other fellow potters as this kind of thing likely causes more and more restrictions on kilns of all types (wood, gas, electric) to develop.

Some things about this are actually for the better. I've seen gas kiln installations in the past that were disasters waiting to happen..... stuff like moveable propane burners literally plumbed with some garden hose and hose clamps. Kilns crammed into spaces with clearances that assured eventual pyrolization of structural wood and a fire down the road. Inadequate ventilation to remove heat and carbon monoxide. High temperature effluent routed through old home chimneys with no linings of any sort. The list is endless. I have seen the results of gas kiln explosions (yes... unfortunately they do happen.) I've seen the result of fires. I've been an expert witness in leagal disputes.

THAT is how we got into the serious scrutiny of gas kilns department.

A lot of gas kiln installations I have seen should not have happened in the past. They WERE risky situations, put in by people who might have been good artists/potters.... but were not well versed in the design and installation of such equipment. Just because you make good pots does not mean that you have decent thermal engineering skills or really understand combustion theory and practice. Simply reading Olsen's "Kiln Book" is not an education in kiln design anmd building.

If you do your homework, if you know what you are doing to put in a decent kiln installed safely, and you are trying to put in a kiln in a location where such situations are allowed....... it is still perfectly possible to put in a gas kiln. You must do your homework first. And be upfront with any zoning and regulatory issues. And comply with them!

But if your goal is to do something like cram an illegal business operation (I'm a hobby potter.... wink....wink....wink) into a location zoned Residental A and have a gas kiln there...... well... yes..... that is MUCH harder to do these days. As is getting "around" building codes. Too many people did this stuff in the past.

Part of the things I teach in my classes (and workshops) is doing all the planning work that is necessary. And how to deal with regulatory organizations professionally and in a way that they can relate to and understand. The kind of proposal presentations that worked with town governments 30 years ago will be laughed at today....... just like the same is true of a application for a public sculpture installation. You have to have your ducks in a row.


My current pet peeve these days is people putting in smoky anagama-style wood kilns in places that such wood kilns should never be built. Like what has happened with gas kilns....... this is going to eventually bring the regulatory gods down on ALL wood kilns. Reality burger ....hold the ketchup....... not everyone in every location should be able to have an anagama-style wood kiln. If you must have one.... MOVE to an appropriate more rural place where you CAN have one that will not cause undue problems. If you want that kind of kiln bad enough.... you will do this. If not.... accept reality and move on.

best,

.................john
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#17 neilestrick

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Posted 28 June 2012 - 03:20 PM

I've seen gas kiln installations in the past that were disasters waiting to happen..... stuff like moveable propane burners literally plumbed with some garden hose and hose clamps. Kilns crammed into spaces with clearances that assured eventual pyrolization of structural wood and a fire down the road. Inadequate ventilation to remove heat and carbon monoxide. High temperature effluent routed through old home chimneys with no linings of any sort. The list is endless. I have seen the results of gas kiln explosions (yes... unfortunately they do happen.) I've seen the result of fires. I've been an expert witness in leagal disputes.


There's a woman in the next town over from me who just has a pipe with an orifice for her burners. Not a single safety device. If anything happens to her while the kiln is running, it won't shut down till the fire department comes when her house catches fire.

I've seen equally scary electric kiln installations, too. Especially at schools where they are short on space. There have been a couple of occasions where I had to meet with the principal and said the kiln should not be fired again until the necessary changes were made to make it safe. Scary stuff.

When I see installations like those, I don't really get frustrated with the rules and regulations. Part of me feels like it's not so much that they're getting really strict, but rather that they're finally getting strict, that we've been getting away with a lot for a long time.
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#18 LilyT

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Posted 28 June 2012 - 10:45 PM

Many of the safety issues brought up above are surprising to me because they are
so dangerous. I would have thought that potters would be more careful, but
I suppose it is true that there are always some people who do not do the
work of learning how to build a safe installation, which is why safety regulations involve.

I'd like to clarify that when I mentioned (before) kilns running under the radar,
these kilns are not entirely uninspected, just unpermitted. It is possible (and generally advised)
in our area to have the local firemen come out for an informal safety evaluation.
This is a valuable resource. These guys have been very supportive and give us tips
on what temperatures and features are considered safe or unsafe. They will
specifically help you get 'up to code' even if you are going unpermitted, and
even inform you about additional fire safety features to add so that you show
that you are acting in good faith should you ever get officially inspected.

Just my observations, not trying to contradict anyone else's...

#19 JBaymore

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Posted 29 June 2012 - 11:01 AM

I'd like to clarify that when I mentioned (before) kilns running under the radar,
these kilns are not entirely uninspected, just unpermitted.


If "permitting" is required in the location that the kilns exist, then there are some potential BIG consequences that could crop up.

For example, if the property is insured by some company for fire, peremises liability, and other such, and there were a loss of some sort.......... if the installation is not a legal one... the insurance company can deny the claim....... even if the claim has NOTHING to do with the kiln at all. If it DOES involve the kiln... then you can be just about sure that they will be looking for the legality of the installation.

If (god forbid) the kiln should cause injury or death to an individual from some sort of accident... and it was not a legal installation and it can be proved that the owner of the kiln KNEW that it was not a legal installation,...... significant punitive legal damages could be assessed. Possibly criminal charges. A lot will depend on WHO go injured or killed and how legally aggressive they were. And the town officials could also be held liable if they knew that the kiln was there and did not make sure it was done legally.

Also a town that is not aggressively "looking" for such issues before the fact will usually look strongly at such issues AFTER that fact... and try to shift any potential blame for a "lack of compliance" off of themselves and onto the owner of the kiln (or the owner of the property the kiln is located on if it is a rental).

Those "nice" guys in the fire department are probably opening themselves up for potential issues also. If they KNOW that the installation is illegal.... and they "support" the installation ... they likely (at the least) could lose their jobs if anything happens and that situation is disclosed. Maybe where you live the government has an "amnesty" program for the kind of "monitoring and support" that the fire department is giving on these unpermitted installations.... but that is rare. Such things DO exist... like the EPA's compliance assistance program....... but I'd be surprised if a local town has such an official program.

In todays litigous world, it is generally not a good thing to play fast and loose with regulations. They tend to bite back hard. You don't want to be insured by "Just Lucky, Ltd." anymore.

best,

.............................john
John Baymore
Immediate Past President; Potters Council
Professor of Ceramics; New Hampshire Insitute of Art

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#20 JBaymore

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Posted 29 June 2012 - 11:12 AM

When I see installations like those, I don't really get frustrated with the rules and regulations. Part of me feels like it's not so much that they're getting really strict, but rather that they're finally getting strict, that we've been getting away with a lot for a long time.


Neil,
I've seen the same with many electric kilns setups. Somehow people think they are just "toasters" ;) . And I've had to tell folks that had me in to do a review of the situation that the kilns need to be shut down and not fired until X,Y, and Z got done.

I see stuff that they look right past day after day after day as they use their studios.

Things like a "temporary" 2 x 4 wooden post bracing up the hood over an updraft gas kiln (the metal support hangar had broken) , on a hood that handles high temperature effulent. That had clearly been there a long time....and shows clear pyrolisis and charring of the wood. And is located right next to a flamable wooden wall area that it could fall toward if it caught fire and then came loose. (When I pointed out that it was there... I got a "really?"..... they no longer "saw" it.)

There is that saying.... "familiarity breeds contempt". Potters tend to look at fire as a friend. It is too easy to forget how dangerous and destructive it can ALSO be. Everything is fine.... until it isn't.

best,

........................john
John Baymore
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