TerryBerry Posted March 28, 2019 Report Share Posted March 28, 2019 A couple years ago, I got a Duncan EA-820 manual kiln off of Craigslist. Paid about $50 for it. My garage was already wired with a 240v outlet, so I was excited to start exploring pottery. However, when I turned the kiln on, I heard a clicking so rapid, it would more aptly be described as a chattering. After some basic troubleshooting and Googling, I found it was the relay which was clicking. Thinking, perhaps the relay was bad, I replaced it. The new one not only clicked repetitively, but promptly began to melt. Frustrated, I moved on to another project and then life got in the way. My kids have recently developed a huge interest in pottery, so I'm giving the kiln another go. I've been able to find wiring diagrams online and everything internal to the kiln appears to be wired correctly. I've got a 240v outlet on a 40amp breaker with 8 guage wire, so that seems to be in line as well. Any idea what could be causing the relay to act this way? I'm stumped and before I go down a rabbit hole, I thought I would check to see if maybe I was missing something obvious or if anyone in the forum had gone through a similar experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
liambesaw Posted March 28, 2019 Report Share Posted March 28, 2019 Manual kiln with relays eh? I don't think you need any relays if you've got a manual kiln... At least my manual kiln didn't have any relays until I installed a controller. I'm guessing the relays are burning up because they're getting juiced with 240v and they're meant to handle 12v, thats just my guess. If you can post pictures of the circuitry it would be helpful Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
liambesaw Posted March 28, 2019 Report Share Posted March 28, 2019 I found a wiring diagram online https://www.paragonweb.com/files/wiringdiagrams/W EA and DA 820-2 -4.pdf Maybe compare to what you have... It.does have a relay. Looks like it might not be the same as a typical kiln relay though which are powered by lower voltage. If the original relay was clicking rapidly though, I'm thinking it might be an issue with the timers that control it? Something to think about anyway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark C. Posted March 28, 2019 Report Share Posted March 28, 2019 Duncan was bought up by Paragon kilns-call them and talk story-they are in Texas which may have 5 time zones as I heard its a BIG place Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerryBerry Posted March 28, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 28, 2019 8 hours ago, liambesaw said: Manual kiln with relays eh? I don't think you need any relays if you've got a manual kiln... At least my manual kiln didn't have any relays until I installed a controller. Thanks for the quick reply. My kiln may not technically be considered "Manual"...to be honest, I was just trying to throw in a little more jargon to sound like I knew what I was talking about. 8 hours ago, liambesaw said: I found a wiring diagram online https://www.paragonweb.com/files/wiringdiagrams/W EA and DA 820-2 -4.pdf Maybe compare to what you have... It.does have a relay. Looks like it might not be the same as a typical kiln relay though which are powered by lower voltage. If the original relay was clicking rapidly though, I'm thinking it might be an issue with the timers that control it? Something to think about anyway Yes, that's the wiring diagram I've been working with and my kiln is wired to its specifications. My next guess was that one (or both) of the timers might be malfunctioning. Unfortunately, since Paragon has largely phased out Duncan parts, the replacements I'm finding online go for anywhere between $200-$350! I had hoped that maybe I was making some obvious mistake and that someone on here would tell me the equivalent of "No, you have to actually put the car into gear if you want it to drive." Oh well. I guess I"ll see if I can find some information about testing the timers. Thank you for your insight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerryBerry Posted March 28, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 28, 2019 5 hours ago, Mark C. said: Duncan was bought up by Paragon kilns-call them and talk story-they are in Texas which may have 5 time zones as I heard its a BIG place Yeah, it probably wouldn't hurt to give them a call. Luckily I'm from Arkansas so I don't need an interpreter when I talk to someone speaking Texan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
High Bridge Pottery Posted March 28, 2019 Report Share Posted March 28, 2019 Is there anything on the timers that you can twist? Never even seen a fixed interval timer and a repeat cycle timer. Also weird that the bottom elements are not controlled by the infinity switch. Interesting kiln. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kielb Posted March 28, 2019 Report Share Posted March 28, 2019 9 hours ago, TerryBerry said: Yeah, it probably wouldn't hurt to give them a call. Luckily I'm from Arkansas so I don't need an interpreter when I talk to someone speaking Texan. It looks like later in life they got rid of the timers in favor of infinite switches. In the manual mode the 4300 timer is jumped out and the 4600 timer controls the double pole relay and top element be way of the relay. The 4600 timer powers the double pole relay which disconnects power to the elements. Yes, you heard me right, disconnects. This relay has a high voltage primary and when Off provides power to the infinite switch and bottom elements, sort of. so no idea of what the sequence of operation of this was but scanning through their later models all of the timer and relays were replaced with simple infinite switches and pilot indicators (hooked to the “P” terminal). The manual and automatic switch seems to have gone away as well. my best idea, talk to the Paragon guys and likely replace most of this mess with an infinite switch for the bottom elements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilestrick Posted March 30, 2019 Report Share Posted March 30, 2019 The only time I've heard a relay chatter is when the 240 volt element feeder wires were connected to the relay where the low voltage control wires should have been connected. It would account for the melting, too. Make sure your wires are on the correct terminals on the relays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kielb Posted March 30, 2019 Report Share Posted March 30, 2019 2 minutes ago, neilestrick said: The only time I've heard a relay chatter is when the 240 volt element feeder wires were connected to the relay where the low voltage control wires should have been connected. It would account for the melting, too. Make sure your wires are on the correct terminals on the relays. His relay is a 240 v contactor style relay. This thing has two cycle timers, never seen anything like it. No 12v low voltage in this thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilestrick Posted March 30, 2019 Report Share Posted March 30, 2019 2 minutes ago, Bill Kielb said: His relay is a 240 v contactor style relay. This thing has two cycle timers, never seen anything like it. No 12v low voltage in this thing. My bad. I didn't have a chance to read through all the specifics. Just got back from vacation. Could have the wrong relay, then. @TerryBerry what is the model of relay you're using? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kielb Posted March 30, 2019 Report Share Posted March 30, 2019 4 minutes ago, neilestrick said: My bad. I didn't have a chance to read through all the specifics. Just got back from vacation. Could have the wrong relay, then. @TerryBerry what is the model of relay you're using? Link up top https://www.paragonweb.com/files/wiringdiagrams/W EA and DA 820-2 -4.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerryBerry Posted March 31, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2019 @Bill Kielb @neilestrick @High Bridge Pottery @liambesaw and @Mark C. Thank you all for the advice! I actually got it working! I ended up disconnecting everything, testing the controllers, relay, even the continuity of the wires. Everything seemed to be in order, so I put it back together using the wiring diagram. I also switched back to the original relay (since the new one had melted). And... magically it started working. My best guess is that a wire was crossed somewhere or a connection was loose to begin with, and then the new relay wasn't a perfect match. Magnecraft no longer makes that exact relay, and it looks like the new one I bought from Schneider Electric was a little off in the percise specs (even though it was listed as a replacement for the older relay). At any rate it's humming right along now! I just need to do some test firings and read up on kiln wash and all the maintenance I need to do to keep it in tip top shape. I really appreciate your help. Without it I'd probably still be staring helplessly at a partially disassembled kiln! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilestrick Posted April 1, 2019 Report Share Posted April 1, 2019 39 minutes ago, TerryBerry said: @Bill Kielb @neilestrick @High Bridge Pottery @liambesaw and @Mark C. Thank you all for the advice! I actually got it working! I ended up disconnecting everything, testing the controllers, relay, even the continuity of the wires. Everything seemed to be in order, so I put it back together using the wiring diagram. I also switched back to the original relay (since the new one had melted). And... magically it started working. My best guess is that a wire was crossed somewhere or a connection was loose to begin with, and then the new relay wasn't a perfect match. Magnecraft no longer makes that exact relay, and it looks like the new one I bought from Schneider Electric was a little off in the percise specs (even though it was listed as a replacement for the older relay). At any rate it's humming right along now! I just need to do some test firings and read up on kiln wash and all the maintenance I need to do to keep it in tip top shape. I really appreciate your help. Without it I'd probably still be staring helplessly at a partially disassembled kiln! Glad you got it working! I'm thinking that the new relay had the wrong coil voltage, or it's possible that you just got a bad one. I recently had a batch of 12 relays that all died within 5 minutes of installation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerryBerry Posted May 13, 2019 Author Report Share Posted May 13, 2019 So, fun fact: my kiln isn't fixed after all. It started chattering again, and a user manual for the kiln that I found online confirmed that the repeat cycle timer is bad. Both timers are supposed to be changed together. So I'm looking at about $225. Plus these parts haven't been manufactured in 20 years, so they aren't used, but definitely aren't new. The two timers and the relay work together to put the kiln through a preheating phase. They cause the elements to turn on and off every 60 seconds for two hours. After two hours the elements stay on until reaching temp and the kiln sitter cuts power or the safety timer runs out. On 3/28/2019 at 5:47 PM, Bill Kielb said: my best idea, talk to the Paragon guys and likely replace most of this mess with an infinite switch for the bottom elements. I like Bill's suggestion to get rid of the timers and relay in favor of simply wiring up a second infinite switch directly to the bottom elements. It might take some practice to ensure even firing, but makes more sense to me, and would ultimately provide more control. The preheating phase would be eliminated, but would starting the kiln on low and gradually turning up the infinite switches accomplish something akin to it? Has anyone tried something similar? Any major pitfalls I should watch out for? Is this great idea or just a fool's notion and I should just fork up the $$ for the parts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
liambesaw Posted May 13, 2019 Report Share Posted May 13, 2019 I would put together a few shopping lists. One for fixing it as is, one for doing infinite switches, and one for putting in a Bartlett v6cf and going full control. You might find that the price difference between the three may be worth going digital (IF YOU ARE COMFORTABLE) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kielb Posted May 13, 2019 Report Share Posted May 13, 2019 I think the infinite switches are the relay (less) solution which you should be able to effect for minimal $$$ and for which you could develop your own simple schedule such as lid propped, bottom on low for 1 hr to dry things out then whatever midfire and highfire schedules you prefer such as both sections low for 1 hr, both medium for ....... then high for ..... At our studio we glaze fire typical stuff in five to seven hours every day and 04 bisque to about 14 hrs plus any preheat. Since this is basically a manual kiln you already have a schedule you are use to so it’s just a matter of coming up with a slow warmup that’s slow and safe enough for your stuff. As Liam said automating this does have its advantages and I believe he is satisfied with his end result and not having to revisit the kiln every few hours to turn it up. We gave him minimal input but I believe he worked everything out to his satisfaction pretty easily. automation will require some relays though so $$$$$$$ and additional future maintenance on the relays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kielb Posted May 13, 2019 Report Share Posted May 13, 2019 19 minutes ago, liambesaw said: I would put together a few shopping lists. One for fixing it as is, one for doing infinite switches, and one for putting in a Bartlett v6cf and going full control. You might find that the price difference between the three may be worth going digital (IF YOU ARE COMFORTABLE) Coming soon as promised ....... solid state relay design for three zone cone art is done, Less than 200.00 per kiln and has redundant lid safety switches! Working on the video right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerryBerry Posted May 14, 2019 Author Report Share Posted May 14, 2019 Thanks for the advice. I was surprised to find that the cost of a V6cf was comparable to replacing the relays. Looking at all my options, I'm going to go with the 2nd switch for now. I'm one of those guys that still smokes brisket using charcoal and babysitting the dampeners for 9 hours. So Saturdays will just become my Smoke & Fire days-- when I spend all day smoking ribs and firing clay. Plus if I start out with a manual kiln, then when I finally make the switch to digital, I'll appreciate it that much more. I'll update the thread once I get everything copacetic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kielb Posted May 14, 2019 Report Share Posted May 14, 2019 1 minute ago, TerryBerry said: Thanks for the advice. I was surprised to find that the cost of a V6cf was comparable to replacing the relays. Looking at all my options, I'm going to go with the 2nd switch for now. I'm one of those guys that still smokes brisket using charcoal and babysitting the dampeners for 9 hours. So Saturdays will just become my Smoke & Fire days-- when I spend all day smoking ribs and firing clay. Plus if I start out with a manual kiln, then when I finally make the switch to digital, I'll appreciate it that much more. I'll update the thread once I get everything copacetic. Sometimes mastering the manual part is a lost art but provides a deep practical knowledge of what is going on and how it can be achieved. Manual works fine, nothing wrong with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerryBerry Posted May 18, 2019 Author Report Share Posted May 18, 2019 Got the new infinite switch installed and on the first pass it seems to be working. All the elements come on and heat up just fine. Still got some testing to do, but it looks like we're on the right path! Thanks again for sharing your advice! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harlantjader Posted October 10, 2020 Report Share Posted October 10, 2020 On 5/12/2019 at 10:51 PM, Bill Kielb said: Coming soon as promised ....... solid state relay design for three zone cone art is done, Less than 200.00 per kiln and has redundant lid safety switches! Working on the video right now. I am having a similar issue with a Duncan EA1020. including the melting replacement relay. Would you share the wiring diagram to replace the timers with a second infinite switch (and the part number for the infinite switch)? thank you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Kielb Posted October 11, 2020 Report Share Posted October 11, 2020 5 hours ago, harlantjader said: Would you share the wiring diagram to replace the timers with a second infinite switch (and the part number for the infinite switch)? Check with @TerryBerry - his kiln, his rewire. Maybe PM him. If my memory is still clear at the time I just looked up successor model wiring diagrams and noticed they got rid of the timers and replaced with infinite switch method. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harlantjader Posted October 22, 2020 Report Share Posted October 22, 2020 Here is a suggested wiring diagram to follow from the Paragon kilns that show the infinite switches without the timers and relays. I needed to add a second infinite switch as they are rated at 15 amps and my kiln is rated at 30 amps, but the elements were already grouped together in two sets. I hope that this can help if anyone is in a similar situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerryBerry Posted November 26, 2020 Author Report Share Posted November 26, 2020 Looks like you got it figured out. The diagram you shared is basically my new set-up, just without the 3rd set of elements. Here's a summary of my process of anyone else find themselves in a similar situation. 1. Bought a universal infinite switch rated for 240V from Amazon. They're less than $20. 2. Removed the timers and relay. 3. Mounted the new infinite switch onto the cover panel making use of the space vacated by the timers/relay. Just drilled a hole in the cover and popped it in. 4. Wired the switches directly to the kiln sitter and the elements. Just like in the diagram above: black terminal to L1 and white terminal to L2. H1 to one end of the elements and H2 to the other. The P connection on the infinite switch was left empty. The original switch stayed wired to the top elements. The new switch was wired to the bottom elements. It's that simple. I was able to take the insulated wires that I removed from the timers/relay and use them to hook up the new switch, so that saved me from having to buy new ones. The new switch didn't come with a knob, but I picked up an old stove knob from my local Habitat for Humanity Restore for a quarter. The trickiest part was learning how to balance the temperature from the top and bottom elements since the two switches are not identical and their range is slightly off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.