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Hitch:

pex has two different fitting systems: only the expanded fitting is acceptable by most building codes. New codes also require each plumbing fixture to have its own vent stack; which tie together above the ceiling before going out a 3" stack. 400 amp service. Plumb a 1" gas line rather you  use it now or later. 1" line will provide up to 180k BTU at 6" WC.  They make R15  4" wall batts now.

when I built my 26x 44 studio: I poured 4" concrete starter walls. This allows me to power wash without wetting framing. I think glasrock panels might work for you: fire stop, can be hosed- no concerns about water.

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12 minutes ago, glazenerd said:

pex has two different fitting systems: only the expanded fitting is acceptable by most building codes.

Correct!

No natural gas in my area, so propane is the way Im going. Kiln currently running on it anyways; I agree, better to do it now rather than need it and have to tear up the floor to fix it.

Ive looked into the high density fiber glass faced batts; wonderful to get the extra R Value from the same space. However I cant find any sources cheaper than retail. The rigid foam I plan on using can be bought from salvage yards, or factory seconds for 70% or so off retail. Has to be bought by the tractor trailer load, which I will need anyways. Can get polyiso, EPS, and XPS this way. Planning on using 5" in between posts, affixed to the girts, and spray foamed sealed to provide my vapor barrier. Interior service wall will be at least 2x4, but hopefully (budget) 2x6, giving me another 5" of rigid foam. The service wall will be set off the exterior wall by 1-2 inches (allow for electric runs, plumbing runs,etc) and the cavity will be filled by blown in fiberglass/cellulose. Confirming with engineer that this wont hold moisture and be dangerous for our framing. 18-24" of blown in fiber/cellulose in the ceiling; should have around R40 in the walls and R50 in the ceiling.

If we were stick building this project I agree that a 12" starter wall, above slab grade, would keep the bottom of my framing from getting wet. Being a post frame structure I dont think there is anyway to cost effectively add in a starter wall like you say. Engineer might not approve it either. FRP will cover the bottom 4' of wall, and 90* trim will be affixed to drywall first, and sealed to slab with industrial adhesive (need engineer to spec).

Im not familiar with the glasrock; what are the cost comparisons? I was looking at using greenboard for all the walls, and metal liner panels or drywall for the ceiling. Does the glasrock finish out as nice as drywall? I like the idea of acting as a fire stop too; Was going to sheath the areas around the kiln with concrete board, but this might be a cheaper and easier install. Kilns are going to be at least 24" from any combustibles anyways, so this is just a peace of mind detail.

Edited by hitchmss

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I'm old school on the plumbing as I can do all the Copper work myself. My fine homebuilding mag. did a cost analysis on pex vs copper, it was about the same. As you said the connection tools and the fittings cost more.I have all the copper  tools and stuff to do that work. Pex is a complete retool for me.

pex is faster to work with but needs more support hangers and specify tools. I'm not a plastic lover.Its easier to damage as well.

Nerd is the retired pro in the building fields here.

In our sleepy area glass rock and rock wool is not available -I wish it was.

I think the 1/2 bath is not needed for your size building really but when you are 60 you will like it more than now.

The 4 inch starter wall can be poured at same time with simple forms for not much more than traditional slab work. especially for a good concrete guy .  Thats a great idea really Tom

Speaking of Tom (glazenerd) I read your piece today in Ceramics monthly-good read.

When ever I'm in the slab world I always drop a few extra conduits in the form-as you never know what you may want later so some spare sweeps up into the wall void is always a good idea for cheap now costly later.I just used one a few years ago to run #2 wire out to an outbuilding unplanned long ago but extra pipe was already in.

Edited by Mark C.

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check with your fire marshal regarding running propane lines through a concrete floor. there are national safety standards for propane in home and industrial buildings.   Propane sinks, natural gas is lighter than air will move up.  I have studied too many propane fires &  explosions due to propane leaks that run along or under flooring.  

LT

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1 hour ago, glazenerd said:

Rockwall: also fire retardant.  https://www.lowes.com/pd/ROCKWOOL-Wood-stud-R-15-Rock-Wool-Batt-Insulation-with-Sound-Barrier-15-25-in-W-x-47-in-L/3388304

given your location: if you go over R42 in the ceiling; increase chance of sweating ( trapped moisture)

I've wondered about using rockwool/roxul on the exterior of a kiln as secondary insulating layer.

As far as I know it's good to around 200c.

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13 hours ago, glazenerd said:

if you go over R42 in the ceiling; increase chance of sweating ( trapped moisture)

I didnt know this. There will be a vapor barrier between the finished ceiling and framing; does this make a difference? No can lights, just surface mounted LED tube fixtures. Attic space will have closed in, vented soffits, ridge vent, and gable vents.

Edited by hitchmss

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1 hour ago, glazenerd said:

i spent a few minutes drawing a flow chart of your design. You want the design centered around the function of making pottery. The least amount of effort loading and unloading: with doors big enough for a pallet jack.

A couple oppositions I have to that design is that I want to be able to hose down my glazing area, and I didnt want to be introducing water where my kilns and glazed wares will be, and the kiln room will be non climate controlled (so I dont push fumes from kilns around the rest of the building), but I do want my glaze room to be climate controlled. Otherwise, I do wholeheartedly agree; the fewer times I touch the clay the better.

Having lots of time to myself, while driving one time, I tried to count how many times each pound of clay gets touched before I sell it. This includes buying the clay, loading into van, van to dolly, dolly to studio...............It adds up to something like 30 times each pound gets touched. When using tons (around 8- 10 tons currently) this adds up to a staggering amount of weight that I move each year. Im not getting any younger, and while I am in good physical shape now, I want to keep it that way too!

I do use a lot of glaze materials each year, but I dont anticipate buying them in full pallets (dont use THAT much material, and didnt plan to have pallet shelving for the storage), so I dont need to have 5' doors into each room. All the rooms, except for the sanding/spraying room (which is a bottleneck) do have at least 6' wide entries into them though, so I can bring in pallets if need be, or as I planned it, to be able to move really wide pots from the making room to kiln room/glazing.

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12 hours ago, Magnolia Mud Research said:

check with your fire marshal regarding running propane lines through a concrete floor. there are national safety standards for propane in home and industrial buildings.   Propane sinks, natural gas is lighter than air will move up.  I have studied too many propane fires &  explosions due to propane leaks that run along or under flooring.  

I had planned on running the propane line below the slab because that's how I assumed that the county would require the install, however, I am not certain on this. I would prefer it to be through the walls, so I can access it, should there ever be a need to. Part of the reason for the big 8'x8' door in the kiln room is for venting during firing, but also to allow those dense LPG vapors to escape, should there every be any.

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12 hours ago, C.Banks said:

I've wondered about using rockwool/roxul on the exterior of a kiln as secondary insulating layer.

As far as I know it's good to around 200c.

Id be curious to know more about this myself; a lot of insulating materials are treated with chemicals to prevent mold growth, and act as a fire retardant. Id imagine that those chemicals would not be something you'd be wanting to breath, should they be getting hot enough, to become unstable. 200c is around 400 F, which is not terribly hot in regards to a kiln; should there be any "hot spots" in your kiln, this could become a fire hazard too.

My refractory supplier started carrying a new brand of fiber insulation (cant remember brand) which I believe was made in mexico. I believe I paid something like $40 for a full roll of 2'x 1". At that price its hard to beat. The characteristics of this fiber rivals that of the more expensive brands too, at less than half the cost. The Schaefer group is where I buy all my refractories; they cater to industrial kilns/ovens/furnaces/incinerators/etc, but they carry nice, industrial grade products at relatively good costs; since their main clientele are spending tens of thousands on a re-facing of their equipment, their prices arent as cheap as some brickyards that Ive bought from in the past, but a little negotiating and its comparable.

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14 hours ago, glazenerd said:

Glasrock. https://www.colonialmaterials.com/Product.do?code=58SHG08-C

different suppliers, pending where you live.

The web site states that its water/mold resistant, but not water proof, which would be fine I assume, for intermittent, light exposure to water, but since it is water permeable, I would assume that I would need to have a vapor barrier between it and any other organic material (which I was planning for any exterior walls anyways).

When finishing it though, does one use a specialty finishing mud, otherwise, whats to keep the mud from breaking down, or growing mold itself? Likewise, if it is water permeable, if water gets behind my paint, should I worry about it blistering/peeling? I assume that since the fibers are "fully embedded" that you wouldnt have to worry about sanding fibers, and having "hairs" in your finished surface.

This may be a better substrate on which to mount my FRP in terms of its water resilience, but it sounded like you were advocating using this as my finished surface, with no other water barrier? There are plenty of water proof, or mold proof (water resistant, non organic) sheet goods out there, but most of them cost way more than I want to spend. I would prefer to put in the most water resilient substrate I can, but I think the combo of FRP and sub material is going to be my cheapest and best option.

Edited by hitchmss

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12 hours ago, C.Banks said:

I've wondered about using rockwool/roxul on the exterior of a kiln as secondary insulating layer.

As far as I know it's good to around 200c.

I believe Roxual is rated to over 1000C. They have a lot of different products, though, so you'd have to verify. I would not use something rated to only 200C.

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this is such an exciting idea that you might just ask This Old House if they want to be involved.   all those plumbing questions and floor heating are just the kind of thing they like.    i haven't built a new house since 2005 so i know there is a lot of new info and new products that could work more efficiently than the things i used to do.  

i do remember shopping for a house in the 1970s and thinking i would love to have one of the ones that had radiant floor heat.  then i discovered that the piping was copper and there was a reaction with the concrete that ate up the copper pipes.   fixing it was cost prohibitive.    Rich Trethewey  showed how the pex went in over metal to radiate the heat upwards when they put it into a wood floor.  wonder what is best today?

(as i sit here in florida on the unheated porch where it is about 60 degrees wishing i had either kind, right NOW!)

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49 minutes ago, neilestrick said:

I believe Roxual is rated to over 1000C. They have a lot of different products, though, so you'd have to verify. I would not use something rated to only 200C.

After some minor fact checking it's actually the binder that decomposes at 200c according to the MSDS.

Roxul begins to melt at 2150c (1177f).

Please excuse the slightly off topic distraction. Mineral wool is an interesting thing.

 

 

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6 minutes ago, oldlady said:

(as i sit here in florida on the unheated porch where it is about 60 degrees wishing i had either kind, right NOW!)

We did a renovation in our home/basement this past year due to a flood in may. New triple pane doors, new insulation in walls and a new gas fireplace make my studio MUCH MUCH more comfy, but even though I have warm slippers, and wool socks on my feet, my toes are still cold on the concrete slab. It would be SO nice to have warm toes in the winter, however unless I'm in the bath, bed, or doing strenuous exercise my feet are generally cold, so maybe that's just me.

Before a spray booth, I used to spray glazes outside, even in the dead of winter in OH; talk about frozen fingers! The kiln room is either freezing in winter, or melting in summer. Before the wood stove, the shared studio barely got above 50*, and a window AC unit in the summer does little to keep it in the 70's. I am looking forward to having a studio which will be about as close to perfection as I can afford!

The technology when it comes to building is incredible; Ive been interested in learning about modern building techniques for a while, and reading about Net Zero homes, smart homes, and alternative building techniques/materials fascinates me. There is SOOOO much more to build a home with now, than there was even 20 years ago, but compared to 80 years ago its like we are the jetsons compared to the stone age. The only downside is you really have to learn about all this tech, otherwise you as a DIY'er is clueless, or pay an engineer/contractor what to do, and fancy tech usually doesnt come cheap. Thankfully, all the technologies I am using have been well investigated and tested, widely used, and thus are generally relatively cheap, even compared to what they cost 10 years ago.

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cold feet is a constant but only a small part of my problem.   i am actually allergic to cold.   tested by allergist.   a tiny draft you would probably not notice will start my reaction just like someone with hay fever.  runny nose and eyes, shivering, etc. start almost immediately.   so florida in the winter, more wool sweaters than anyone should need and 2 pair of wool socks.   under 70 degrees is painful, 70 to 75 almost tolerated and comfortable at 75 and above.

 

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1 minute ago, oldlady said:

 i am actually allergic to cold.   tested by allergist. 

WHOA, I had no idea this was even a thing! I actually like the winters (seasons really), but feel badly that it actually hurts you to be cold! Being cold can be miserable, but to feel pain is terrible!

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In our area no gas lines allowed in cement slabs or under them-They all go thru the wall. They can go thru a foundation wall if thru a larger hole.

I think you will be forced to surface run them inside building on slab top. They can be buried outside and pop up at slab and into the building -thats in this area.

I have my clay down to 12-14 moves before sold. You need to work that number down as I use 10 tons a year as well.

Explain why you sand or sandblast all the pots? Usually wet sponging is so much easier in the green state?

 

One note on Mexican fiber-the hot face shrinks way more than other fibers-so I would avoid it for final hot face layer. I have used it as back up insulation for decades now as its not new just cheaper.Same deal with the china made fiber-shrinkage on hot face is much more than the good stuff.

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3 hours ago, hitchmss said:

Id be curious to know more about this myself; a lot of insulating materials are treated with chemicals to prevent mold growth, and act as a fire retardant. Id imagine that those chemicals would not be something you'd be wanting to breath, should they be getting hot enough, to become unstable. 200c is around 400 F, which is not terribly hot in regards to a kiln; should there be any "hot spots" in your kiln, this could become a fire hazard too.

My refractory supplier started carrying a new brand of fiber insulation (cant remember brand) which I believe was made in mexico. I believe I paid something like $40 for a full roll of 2'x 1". At that price its hard to beat. The characteristics of this fiber rivals that of the more expensive brands too, at less than half the cost. The Schaefer group is where I buy all my refractories; they cater to industrial kilns/ovens/furnaces/incinerators/etc, but they carry nice, industrial grade products at relatively good costs; since their main clientele are spending tens of thousands on a re-facing of their equipment, their prices arent as cheap as some brickyards that Ive bought from in the past, but a little negotiating and its comparable.

If I remember correctly I paid about 60? bucks for a bale of 12 bats. It sure would be an inexpensive way to go if it held up after the binders and what-not burnt out. It would never of course replace hot face, high temperature refractory brick but as a secondary layer it might be worth a try - or it might just turn into a powder :)

Areogels would be fun to build from too!

Edited by C.Banks

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6 minutes ago, C.Banks said:

It would never of course replace hot face, high temperature refractory brick but as a secondary layer it might be worth a try.

Undoubtedly! Ive talked with folks who talk about other folks (never having met them myself) who say they built their kilns with IFB's, and a layer of kaowool/fiber on the exterior, and then used fiberglass bats on top of that. When I asked about the paper facing (assuming it had the face to begin with), they said if it did reach ignition temps it just burnt off, with no degrading effects. I guess once you are down to a level of temperature where the ignition point of your insulating material isnt a concern, then insulation is insulation. 

I have a single wall (yup, only 4.5"), backed up with 2" of fiber (so 6.5" total insulation) in my high fire gas kiln. The bricks are 2800* bricks, and the wool is  2600*; there is also a layer of ITC-100HT on the hot face (stuff is AMAZING). While it is a very tight kiln, around the door mainly/burner ports/spy holes, there are areas where I expect the temperature is well above the ignition point of paper, but no where near 1000*. As long as there was no concern of off gassing from decomposing chemicals, I dont see why other "alternative" insulation materials would be a huge issue.

Maybe someone much smarter than I is reading this and thinking ".....uhhh, duh, theres __________reason!..."

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If it's not specifically meant to be used as a refractory insulating material, I would only use in areas where there is no chance of the direct heat getting to it. For instance, I would not use it behind bricks that aren't mortared together with proper high temp mortar (not fireclay and sand, which is more of a gap filler than an adhesive). If they aren't mortared, gaps can open up that will expose the board to higher temps. You'll also want to check out the safety of the binders burning out, especially because they may burnout over a long period, like over many firings if the board isn't getting hot enough to burn them out completely on the first firing. That long period of exposure could be bad. Just do your research and make decisions on safety, not $$$.

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Hitch:

not a floor plan- a flow chart. Meant to keep your eyes on effiency.  What is just as needful as a floor plan- is a growth plan. How will this space be used 5-10-20 years from now? How many potters, helpers, kilns, wheels, etc.etc.etc. will be working here ten years from now?  

They make 500 gallon solids tanks: about the largest available for residential use. Private sanitary systems are sand filters these days: the old septic with laterals is ancient history: as are Norweco. You will have to install floor traps before the sewer line exits. 

Gas lines are usually installed on the top chord of the truss. Run 1" from you planned exterior hook up, across the attic: with 1" drops  on the walls you plan to install kilns. Cap them off. The feeder lines are suppose to be visible in your application: certainly the shut offs and dirt legs. 

You have large rooms: place an electrical track in the ceiling or st minimum outlets: so you do do have extension cords everywhere. The cords hang from the ceiling to the wheel, etc. 

glasrock makes exterior panels as well: might have linked the wrong one.

pay attention to exterior door thresholds: do not want to jump thresholds with a pallet jack: ADA thresholds work.

consider running a 200 amp sub panel from the. 400 amp main to the kiln room for easier future expansion. You could install the main there, but doubt local codes will smile on that idea. My big 90'amp front loader has its own ground, seperate of the primary ground. Service disconnects at each kiln is advisable.

1" waterservice minimum. 

You local code enforcer might bring up fire suppression. When they do: remind them that kilns are built to contain fire, not start them...it worked for me ;)

tom

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5 minutes ago, glazenerd said:

You have large rooms: place an electrical track in the ceiling or st minimum outlets: so you do do have extension cords everywhere. The cords hang from the ceiling to the wheel, etc. 

pay attention to exterior door thresholds: do not want to jump thresholds with a pallet jack: ADA thresholds work.

consider running a 200 amp sub panel from the. 400 amp main to the kiln room for easier future expansion. You could install the main there, but doubt local codes will smile on that idea. My big 90'amp front loader has its own ground, seperate of the primary ground. Service disconnects at each kiln is advisable.

1" waterservice minimum. 

You local code enforcer might bring up fire suppression. When they do: remind them that kilns are built to contain fire, not start them...it worked for me ;)

tom

Tom brings up a lot of good points. Definitely drop power from the ceiling. I don't remember the rules for propane, but with natural gas we always recommended a 2" line when I worked at Alpine. Whatever you do, make it big enough to add another kiln later. If you have to install fire suppression, your budget will be affected. Check that out before you move forward. As a private studio it might not be required.

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