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#1 Diana Ferreira

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 01:43 PM

I am wondering why so few comments are in the gallery? I am also a member of a glass forum, and there is a daily gallery S&T, with members commenting on each others work. Because I am used to that, I am a bit puzzled with this silence from fellow ceramic members. Can someone give me an answer? Or am I just silly?
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#2 TJR

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 02:39 PM

I didn't know we could post comments in the gallery. I would prefer that we just look at the work, without passing judgment on others. Who among us is qualified to critique whatever people want to offer up?
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#3 trina

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 02:40 PM

I am wondering why so few comments are in the gallery? I am also a member of a glass forum, and there is a daily gallery S&T, with members commenting on each others work. Because I am used to that, I am a bit puzzled with this silence from fellow ceramic members. Can someone give me an answer? Or am I just silly?



Hi there,, nope you are not silly.... I just have big problems trying to download pictures onto this site. I love looking at galleries of the works of others and posting my own. I am trying to build my own web page at the moment and I can tell you that is not easy either... I will try again to post somthing Trina

#4 Lucille Oka

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 03:50 PM

I never comment on the work in the gallery. Are the images that are placed there expected to be commented on or critiqued? I am not so sure.

I suspect that folks are waiting to be told that their work is 'fabulous!', and that may not be true. So, rather than tell folks that a piece is ‘not very well made’, or that it is ‘really bad’, or that it is ‘really good’ for that matter, (the image may be deceiving), I say nothing at all.

Also, I really cannot tell anything about the ceramic pieces from the images in the gallery other than form and surface treatment. And a vessel is so much more than that.

I recently went to a show and saw the works of well known potters who are deceased, I lifted and handled the works and found that they were not what I had expected from looking at the images of the works from these well known potters. Pictures do not tell all.

And besides, the only critique that ‘artists’ seem to really respect is from gallery directors and owners, store owners or the Grad school professors that they are courting, and not just from a visitor to a website who cannot affect their bottom line. That is how I see it.




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#5 Denice

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 03:56 PM

Dianne I'm usually not sure what a proper comment is, I want to say something constructive, can you critique maybe suggest they add a foot or lip to a piece. More information from the poster would be helpful. I find the gallery a little difficult to use after you post a picture it's hard to locate later but that is probably just my problem so I tend to ignore the gallery. Denice

#6 Ivar

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 05:52 AM

Dianne, eventhoe I do not comment other peoples work in gallery, I was very glad to see your comment on one of my bowls. Why I do not comment, is simply because I do not think I am a pearson who should comment someones work. If I like something really much, I rather send email or something to an artist and express my toughts. I like to see what other people are doing and I like a lot of works I can see in galleries (your black vessels are great) but I do not comment. I prefer differnet type of contacting artist and letting him know that I apericate his work.

#7 Pres

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 09:23 AM

I am wondering why so few comments are in the gallery? I am also a member of a glass forum, and there is a daily gallery S&T, with members commenting on each others work. Because I am used to that, I am a bit puzzled with this silence from fellow ceramic members. Can someone give me an answer? Or am I just silly?


You know this is a good question considering the concern many people are having about negatives in posts. For many years I had to critique student work for grading, and found things difficult at best to be able to comment on the work, and not hurt someones feelings. No matter how positive I would try to be a student would always hang on the negatives. In the end I developed a series of rubrics for projects that let me break down the individual points for the project-making it easier for talk about the work and try to keep out of the personal. This did help quite a bit. To make a long story short, this history makes me reluctant to comment on others work as I do not know what the original intent of the work was. If it is meant to be strictly functional, should I comment on the narrow foot, the lack of handles, or the thickness of rims when these things to the artist are a matter of style? When I know that one is a beginner, I can help to some degree, and have made comments in the posts as to improving the functionality of a piece. When working with students I would always give them 3 choices where to go with a project in progress when asked for an opinion. At the same time I would addendum these with the comment that these are what I would do, but in the end the final direction of the piece is up to them. It is really hard to comment, but maybe we should try to do more so.

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#8 JBaymore

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 10:55 AM

Building off of Prez's above comments...........

Even in the college academic environment, critiques with students can be problematic.

The first step in performing effective and meaningful critiques that are going to actually accomplish something useful is building trust. In an environment where you get to work with the students for extended periods over days and weeks and months and eventually years, you can slowly build that trust so that you can really openly discuss the successful aspects of their work as well as the less successful aspects.

In my classes I tend to "go slowly" in the critique sessions as the class progresses. By the end of a 15 week semester the level of discussion that goes on is a far cry from the first critique session of the semester. There are great differences in what goes on in Freshman critiques and what happens in Senior critiques and what happens in Grad students critiques. As there should be.

So in the forum setting, we have to first ask ourselves are we working with a Freshman, a Sophmore, a Junior, a Senior, or a Grad student level of understanding and "openness"? (using academic nomenclature there ... but you get the idea.) It will take a lot to understand where exactly that person whose work is being critiqued is "at" in this regard. And then temper that understanding with the level of "trust" that exists between the two parties. For most forum relationships... not a lot of "trust" is there. So great care must be exercised.

Many aspects of useful critiques simply fall back to the basic language of visual communications. This stuff is not exactly rocket science. Human visual perception and mental processing is pretty well understood, and has led to a decent understanding of the use of such design concepts as balance, repetition, contrast, and so on and so on. There are good reasons that just about every art school I know of requires 2-D and 3-D design courses in the freshman year; that is the basic "vocabulary" of art. You use that vocabulary to "write your poem".

At first we are looking mainly at the "vocabluary" used in a students work. We help them develop their words. As things progress, we start to focus more on what the poem they write is actually saying.

More critique aspects, when it is functional work, land squarely in the discussion OF function. Does the piece serve the intended purpose well? Can the functional aspects be improved somehow? Handles that do or do not balance well, spouts that do or do not pour well, lids that do or do not seal well, knobs that are or are not easy to grip, vessel interiors that are or are not easy to clean, and glazes that do or do not pose toxicological threats are all in this nature of things.

So how does this relate to a Forum and possible effective critquing? Not all that well.

First of all.... as has been mentioned elsewhere in these forums ........ people tend to "hide" behind forum name "handles". Even if a real name is used, it is far different from having a verbal and in-person relationship. This puts up a wall to the trust building aspect of interpersonal relationships right by the very nature of the medium. Yeah, you can look at whatever profile people have posted and a few images (likely their best-ever work) and maybe get a sense of who the person is, but that is NOT at all like getting to KNOW the person or what they do and what they know in "real time". Over time and through reading a lot of a specific individual's postings, you can slowly get a basic sense of that person. But that too is nothing like "knowing" the person from working with them in real life.

To see a negative (or even "constructivly worded") comment of some sort from some guy or gal named "hotpotter4" whom you do not know at all suddenly show up on your gallery image or in a thread in which you posted and image is NOT likely going to go over very well. And if the same posting was a glowing and astoundingly positive comment..... it is really pretty meaningless in a serious assesment and affirmation of your work.

Nice to see though. Gives you "warm fuzzies".

Personally I'd like to see a forum like this require that real first and last names be used. Perfect... no. But a sterp in the right direction. I belong to a martial arts forum that requires that exact approach. It is the most civil forum I have seen. Much meaningful discussion goes on, and many disagreements happen, but it is all done with care and sensitivity.

So I really don't think that such critiques in this kind of environment are all that good an idea. If you want a critique with a person with whom you have a real relationship, seek out a good school, seek out an apprenticeship with a good person, or maybe take advantage of the Potters Council mentoring program.

Forums are great resources for some things... and not so good at others.

best,

...................john
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Professor of Ceramics; New Hampshire Insitute of Art

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#9 Marcia Selsor

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 12:33 PM

I use the gallery sometimes to post photos of what relates to a discussion. I do this because I ran out of space somehow because we are limited to posting many images under the forums.
So I link it to an image...like "looking for a Green Grueby glaze" I posted a green glaze image and the recipe under the comment.
I like it better. Sometimes the images people post are humongous and one can see them except one inch at a time.
Marcia

#10 ayjay

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 02:13 PM

Sometimes the images people post are humongous and one can see them except one inch at a time.
Marcia


It's annoying but quite common on the net.

Press *Ctrl and -* (that's a minus sign) simultaneously and the picture will shrink each time you press.

press *Ctrl & Zero" to return to normal size.

*Ctrl & +* will make things larger too.

#11 Pres

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 03:34 PM

Building off of Prez's above comments...........

Even in the college academic environment, critiques with students can be problematic.

The first step in performing effective and meaningful critiques that are going to actually accomplish something useful is building trust. In an environment where you get to work with the students for extended periods over days and weeks and months and eventually years, you can slowly build that trust so that you can really openly discuss the successful aspects of their work as well as the less successful aspects.

In my classes I tend to "go slowly" in the critique sessions as the class progresses. By the end of a 15 week semester the level of discussion that goes on is a far cry from the first critique session of the semester. There are great differences in what goes on in Freshman critiques and what happens in Senior critiques and what happens in Grad students critiques. As there should be.

So in the forum setting, we have to first ask ourselves are we working with a Freshman, a Sophmore, a Junior, a Senior, or a Grad student level of understanding and "openness"? (using academic nomenclature there ... but you get the idea.) It will take a lot to understand where exactly that person whose work is being critiqued is "at" in this regard. And then temper that understanding with the level of "trust" that exists between the two parties. For most forum relationships... not a lot of "trust" is there. So great care must be exercised.

Many aspects of useful critiques simply fall back to the basic language of visual communications. This stuff is not exactly rocket science. Human visual perception and mental processing is pretty well understood, and has led to a decent understanding of the use of such design concepts as balance, repetition, contrast, and so on and so on. There are good reasons that just about every art school I know of requires 2-D and 3-D design courses in the freshman year; that is the basic "vocabulary" of art. You use that vocabulary to "write your poem".

At first we are looking mainly at the "vocabluary" used in a students work. We help them develop their words. As things progress, we start to focus more on what the poem they write is actually saying.

More critique aspects, when it is functional work, land squarely in the discussion OF function. Does the piece serve the intended purpose well? Can the functional aspects be improved somehow? Handles that do or do not balance well, spouts that do or do not pour well, lids that do or do not seal well, knobs that are or are not easy to grip, vessel interiors that are or are not easy to clean, and glazes that do or do not pose toxicological threats are all in this nature of things.

So how does this relate to a Forum and possible effective critquing? Not all that well.

First of all.... as has been mentioned elsewhere in these forums ........ people tend to "hide" behind forum name "handles". Even if a real name is used, it is far different from having a verbal and in-person relationship. This puts up a wall to the trust building aspect of interpersonal relationships right by the very nature of the medium. Yeah, you can look at whatever profile people have posted and a few images (likely their best-ever work) and maybe get a sense of who the person is, but that is NOT at all like getting to KNOW the person or what they do and what they know in "real time". Over time and through reading a lot of a specific individual's postings, you can slowly get a basic sense of that person. But that too is nothing like "knowing" the person from working with them in real life.

To see a negative (or even "constructivly worded") comment of some sort from some guy or gal named "hotpotter4" whom you do not know at all suddenly show up on your gallery image or in a thread in which you posted and image is NOT likely going to go over very well. And if the same posting was a glowing and astoundingly positive comment..... it is really pretty meaningless in a serious assesment and affirmation of your work.

Nice to see though. Gives you "warm fuzzies".

Personally I'd like to see a forum like this require that real first and last names be used. Perfect... no. But a sterp in the right direction. I belong to a martial arts forum that requires that exact approach. It is the most civil forum I have seen. Much meaningful discussion goes on, and many disagreements happen, but it is all done with care and sensitivity.

So I really don't think that such critiques in this kind of environment are all that good an idea. If you want a critique with a person with whom you have a real relationship, seek out a good school, seek out an apprenticeship with a good person, or maybe take advantage of the Potters Council mentoring program.

Forums are great resources for some things... and not so good at others.

best,

...................john


Yes, building trust is paramount. I had not really thought of it quite that way, but that really defined the way I would work with students. Over the years part of that trust involved letting them see me as an artist, not just a teacher. Another part from trusting that what I had to say was based on professionalism, not just personal taste or opinion. Most students can tell the difference. Good call!

Simply retired teacher, not dead, living the dream. on and on and. . . . on. . . .                                                                                 http://picworkspottery.blogspot.com/


#12 Diana Ferreira

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 04:21 PM

Thanks for all the replies.
I do not comment on stuff that I do not like, but when I appreciate something, I feel it necessary to tell the maker that I enjoyed it. It just seems so weird to me that there is so many members, with limited uploaded images, so few views from other members, and almost no comments.
The glass forum that I made reference to, had a gallery, and a constructive crit gallery. So with the constructive crit gallery, you post, expecting people to pull your piece to bits discussing the positives and negatives of your work.
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#13 Pres

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 07:25 PM

Thanks for all the replies.
I do not comment on stuff that I do not like, but when I appreciate something, I feel it necessary to tell the maker that I enjoyed it. It just seems so weird to me that there is so many members, with limited uploaded images, so few views from other members, and almost no comments.
The glass forum that I made reference to, had a gallery, and a constructive crit gallery. So with the constructive crit gallery, you post, expecting people to pull your piece to bits discussing the positives and negatives of your work.


That is a good idea. A place to go to get constructive criticism-where you post knowing that your work will probably get torn apart and put back together again. Then you have the place where you post safely.

Simply retired teacher, not dead, living the dream. on and on and. . . . on. . . .                                                                                 http://picworkspottery.blogspot.com/


#14 Ivar

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 08:06 AM


Thanks for all the replies.
I do not comment on stuff that I do not like, but when I appreciate something, I feel it necessary to tell the maker that I enjoyed it. It just seems so weird to me that there is so many members, with limited uploaded images, so few views from other members, and almost no comments.
The glass forum that I made reference to, had a gallery, and a constructive crit gallery. So with the constructive crit gallery, you post, expecting people to pull your piece to bits discussing the positives and negatives of your work.


That is a good idea. A place to go to get constructive criticism-where you post knowing that your work will probably get torn apart and put back together again. Then you have the place where you post safely.


I agree. I would most certainly like to have a place where I could post some image with description, and to have more expirienced potters to give their own view, critique or analysis of this work. I do not have any potter friends, have no other artists in my surrounding to ask them and this would be great for me.

For this reason I have contacted my old teachers, they are all retired now and do not teach anymore, but from time to time I visit them and show them what I have done. One of them is very critical, he was like that in school, but I never had a bad feeling about him, I always loved him saying exactly what he thinks, because that really helping me improve.
Only thing is that maybe because of him and his expectations I become extreemly critical about my work.

#15 Frederik-W

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Posted 16 February 2012 - 06:44 AM

I have also noticed the lack of comments.

Shame on all of you with your lame excuses for not providing comments !
Is the purpose of art not to evoke response !!!

All of us are qualified to have an opinion on art, and our opinions are just as valid as any art curator.
If you somehow think you are not qualified enough, you simply enforce the snobbery of those who think they know better.

If the critique is about function or practical matters, then it should be even easier to criticise,
because then we deal about facts, which are objective.

If you do not want to appear "negative", at least say when you like something!

I would think that any artist would like to know what his/her piece evokes, e.g. if people like or don't like the work,
or whatever feelings it evokes.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. There is no "right" or "wrong".
I think the worst thing for an artist is to present a work, and then... UTTER SILENCE !!

You want to treat people with kid gloves. This is wrong. The fact is that artists make works to be exhibited,
whether it is in a home or a gallery. Artists need to know what people's reactions are, whether it is the cleaner or the "art critic".
They need to "face the music", or they will get nowhere. Even beginners should be taught this asap.
They need to put there vulnerable egos aside. If they cannot accept opinions, how on earth are they going to survive as an artist?

I also disagree with the fact that you have to establish some relationship with the artist in order to criticize.
As a teacher maybe, but an artist's work is public, and anybody in public has an opinion.
While they do not know you at all, their opinion matters a lot, and artist should take note of them.

The artist can shrug off criticism or accept it. If someone's critique here is "unfair",
I am sure there will be good Samaritans who will quickly point it out.

So please crawl out of your shells and comment!

PS: I will be posting photos in the near future and you are welcome to tear my works apart.


#16 Diana Ferreira

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Posted 16 February 2012 - 11:11 AM

I have also noticed the lack of comments.

Shame on all of you with your lame excuses for not providing comments !
Is the purpose of art not to evoke response !!!

All of us are qualified to have an opinion on art, and our opinions are just as valid as any art curator.
If you somehow think you are not qualified enough, you simply enforce the snobbery of those who think they know better.

If the critique is about function or practical matters, then it should be even easier to criticise,
because then we deal about facts, which are objective.

If you do not want to appear "negative", at least say when you like something!

I would think that any artist would like to know what his/her piece evokes, e.g. if people like or don't like the work,
or whatever feelings it evokes.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. There is no "right" or "wrong".
I think the worst thing for an artist is to present a work, and then... UTTER SILENCE !!

You want to treat people with kid gloves. This is wrong. The fact is that artists make works to be exhibited,
whether it is in a home or a gallery. Artists need to know what people's reactions are, whether it is the cleaner or the "art critic".
They need to "face the music", or they will get nowhere. Even beginners should be taught this asap.
They need to put there vulnerable egos aside. If they cannot accept opinions, how on earth are they going to survive as an artist?

I also disagree with the fact that you have to establish some relationship with the artist in order to criticize.
As a teacher maybe, but an artist's work is public, and anybody in public has an opinion.
While they do not know you at all, their opinion matters a lot, and artist should take note of them.

The artist can shrug off criticism or accept it. If someone's critique here is "unfair",
I am sure there will be good Samaritans who will quickly point it out.

So please crawl out of your shells and comment!

PS: I will be posting photos in the near future and you are welcome to tear my works apart.



:-)
Diana
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https://www.facebook...70824173&type=3

#17 teardrop

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Posted 16 February 2012 - 01:22 PM

Bravo, Frederik-W! Bravo!
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind. Dr. Seuss US author & illustrator (1904 - 1991)

#18 Guest_The Unknown Craftsman_*

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Posted 16 February 2012 - 01:37 PM

"Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. There is no "right" or "wrong".

I agree with most of Frederik-W post, but then I came across these sentences.
If we take these as true, then what would explain the hold that Bernard Leach had (and, still has, to many) with the first chapter of his book, A Potters Book? "Toward a standard" is still held up as THE way to judge any ceramic work by many.
What can we make of Clary Illian's book?

#19 Frederik-W

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 06:36 AM

I would be very interested in what Bernard Leach had to say about judging ceramic work.

What I mean to say with "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder" is that art is always subjective.
It is always personal opinion. People should not feel they are "passing judgement on others", as TJR wrote.
It is not about right or wrong, or condemnation, it is about opinion.
There is no need to feel guilt when you say: "This work does not appeal to my sense of aesthetics".
Similarly, the artist has the right to think: "Well, that is just your opinion, and I don't have to worry about it".

I have difficulty in having "standards" for aesthetic judging. Think about all the artists who broke the "standard" of aesthetic judgement in their day,
e.g. Van Gogh. We can set standards for use/function, but not aesthetics.
(Not sure if this is relevant to Mr Leach though).


#20 Denice

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 09:33 AM

Federik It's easy to condemn everyone else about being sensitive to the current state of our society, have you ever posted on the gallery before and if you haven't what's your excuse. Denice




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