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Hi 

Working to learn Clays for a year now, understanding of the cones and type of clays and I would like to take a shot at building something no so common and would appropriate some hints.

The job of the clay will be to keep a tube within a body someplace around 2000f for a type of electroplating a dust particle of  magnesium slamming around within the wall of a hematite clay rich tube to allow the hematite to cover the magnesium.    I will list the parts I am trying to encase in clay. All the parts are made with hot glue intended to melt away as it is heated. The idea is for the cavity to remain without cracking and to withstand at lease 1.500f.

  Hematite dust may not need to be within the casing if its added at the same time as the magnesium dust inthe tubes if the casing will hold up but I read that the hematite mix can make cone 10 higher for higher heat range.. Any idea of a mix %

 

I did learn not to build 3d printer type parts for clay after so many cracks show up but I seem to see the same cracks "smaller"with a mix of mostly cone7 or 10 more then 1/8 or more" thick just letting in dry on a table.

The pic is a type of magnetron you would find in a kitchen microwave oven, they are almost always made of copper and what I am looking to do is use clay with a copper dust or whatever will work as a conductor that's not aluminum  to make a working magnetron within the clay body. its just a conductive cavity hole that a microwave wave can move around without overheating the body. about the same 2000.f   

I have made molds for pre drying parts with plaster of paris and building them works without cracking but adding them with wet clay around the plastic glue parts seems not so easy.  

Lastly... I have tinkered with fireplace mortar a lot. learning to work with it and using it to attach clay parts with other parts but have yet to fire any of them to see what would happen in the kiln. Anyone know if its a bad idea? or would it work at all?

I would be grateful for any help. 

Thanks for your time.

C. Troutman

 

star mag.jpg

Edited by Trout

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I have a sense for what you are trying to accomplish, but still not entirely clear.

hematite can begin to melt as early as 900C, if the clay body has any appreciable sulfide content: which most stoneware bodies do. Porcelain would be the better choice, but the formulation standards would have to be modified to accommodate thermal expansion. This would also include using spodumene as a body flux: sodium, potassium, and boron all have too high of expansion ratios. It would also have to be highly refractory: meaning the alumina content would need to be in the 30-35% range. I need to think about particle distribution, some consideration is also required.

fireplace mortar is highly refractory, usually rated to 3000F. It has high alumina, course particles, and added grog for thermal expansion.you asked if it would work? no. The expansion ratios are so far apart, the attachment will more than likely just fall off. It is not meant for applications under 1/4-1/2" thick. 

T

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Understood. I can wait.. I have not yet built anything worth putting in the kiln to this point so ... LOL The other haft to this is another part almost the same, The same problems more or less.

I have a part that will need to be about 3" thick ,I did the big no no and tryed to just fill the whole area with clay and as you know it went all bad. literally fell apart in chunks, .  The project I'm  attempting is to have a moving partial held in a magnetic field run through two types of magnetrons. One to feed the other in a loop. To be on the same page would you look over the plan parts list .I have most of on this page https://www.facebook.com/clayton.troutman.5 

I would also be interested if you can think of another completely different way to go about building the voids within the clay body. 

As you have time. Thanks again

ctrout

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And here I thought I had gotten way down a rabbit hole.

i will assume you already know ceramic ( porcelain) is an insulator? Used for decades in household electric, and high voltage transmission lines. Computer circuit boards are covered with zinc silicate: which neither conduct or transmit electrical current. So at best you could make a porcelain tube and wrap it with copper wire to create your magnetic field. However, part of your description sounds like a rotary kiln. Rotary kilns with magnetic seperators have been used in industry for some time. Magnet milling has been around for awhile as well.  Sounds like you want to use some form of electrolysis to create a catalyst. There are recipes floating around on the internet for industrial porcelain used for electrical/ magnetic applications.

now that I am beginning to understand you want to build a miniature Hedron Collider. 

Tom

 

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It seems time to hand it over , 1 is to build the fuel and the other 1 is use for making power. 

Yes .. never use silver as fuel~

Trout.

GL~

 

 

stock-photo-noratous-khachkars-armenian-cross-stones-1733033.jpg

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You mentioned that 3-D printed thin clay items break or crack while drying. Were they sitting on a non-porous surface? They need something like newspaper or paper towels to absorb some moisture so they dry evenly and don't stick. Slower drying (restricted air flow) will also help. 

Solid blocks can also have drying problems. Immediate (or as soon as possible) removal from the mold and slow drying while loosely covered in plastic should help.

 

Kudos to Glazenerd's encyclopedic brain!

Edited by Rae Reich

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I have put them in the window with a fan, hung them from string ect. I am hopping I'm just using all the wrong stuff.. picking up porcelain clays today to try my luck. ether way it seems I'm not very good at this.  This is one skill I have never even attempted until all this other stuff fell on me. All the reading and "points of view" like the waffle rock in west va are hard to understand after such a long time weathering and maybe changed the  clay over time to sand stone. from a static charge within it. I'm winging it lol. it may be the body is more hematite as cobblestones using clay as a binder but I don't know. .. yet..

trout

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Cone 10 porcelain already has 17% alumina content - +/-

to figure dry weight additions: commercial porcelain is 20% water.

1000 grams less 200 grams water = 800 grams dry weight.  

800 grams x 13% = 104 grams of added alumina.  ( keeping it simple)

slurry down 1000 grams of moist clay and add 108 grams alumina and mix throughly. You can either wedge it down on plaster to  original pliable consistency ( lot of work) or spread it out on clean surface and let nature dry it back down for you. Then wedge.

might I suggest buying 24" piece of 3" PVC plastic pipe to use as a form to create your high temperature chamber capable of handling thermite reactions. 

T

 

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On 7/29/2018 at 11:16 PM, glazenerd said:

And here I thought I had gotten way down a rabbit hole.

i will assume you already know ceramic ( porcelain) is an insulator? Used for decades in household electric, and high voltage transmission lines. Computer circuit boards are covered with zinc silicate: which neither conduct or transmit electrical current. So at best you could make a porcelain tube and wrap it with copper wire to create your magnetic field. However, part of your description sounds like a rotary kiln. Rotary kilns with magnetic seperators have been used in industry for some time. Magnet milling has been around for awhile as well.  Sounds like you want to use some form of electrolysis to create a catalyst. There are recipes floating around on the internet for industrial porcelain used for electrical/ magnetic applications.

now that I am beginning to understand you want to build a miniature Hedron Collider. 

Tom

 

As I test I think the iron will stick to the voids in the clay tube and let a hot magnetic field help keep the electroplated partical moving. 36 ricochet points should keep the whole void tube as a type of collider ,  I think of it as a ballistic drone energy release from a microwave shock. If the partical can be used as a cathode to power another magnetron, it should rejuvenate the output antenna back in to the primary magnetron and stay running.If... "If the whole thing dose not just explode. 'using one magnetron to powewr another magnetron in a none stop loop.0=point energy.  

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Interesting, not seen a cathode since 1967, when I pulled all of them out of the back of the TV. As I recall, got my arse whopped for that. All you need is a little mercury vapor to make them glow  and regulate power. 

So the pembra will be used to transmit power as well? Will all of these parts be subjected to heat?  I assume the  ferro-magnetic properties of hematite is the reason you are drawn to it?  

You have some unique parameters: the clay would need the flexibility of a polymer, but the rigidity of porcelain. Able to withstand heat, with shrinkage of 10% or under. Hmm, need to put on my Nerd cap and think about this. You could infuse some copper: doable. Hematite levels would be minimal due to brittleness. Not impossible to apply  an engobe that was rich with metallic oxides. What a rabbit hole- I love it.

t

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 I'll let you all think about it, spent the last year in the LENR low energy nuclear forum. They "got it" but none of them can build. Dialog continuous~  

 

Ps A mercury rectifier is in this mess, I'm glad you have some background ~

Edited by Trout

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18 hours ago, Trout said:

I have put them in the window with a fan, hung them from string ect. I am hopping I'm just using all the wrong stuff.. picking up porcelain clays today to try my luck. ether way it seems I'm not very good at this.  This is one skill I have never even attempted until all this other stuff fell on me. All the reading and "points of view" like the waffle rock in west va are hard to understand after such a long time weathering and maybe changed the  clay over time to sand stone. from a static charge within it. I'm winging it lol. it may be the body is more hematite as cobblestones using clay as a binder but I don't know. .. yet..

trout

What you really want is a zero-shrinkage, self-curing clay: PlasterClay! But glazenerd hasn't invented it yet. :( 

 

So, as long as you're stuck with porcelain, remember that it will shrink a bit going from wet to dry and an additional 10-15% when fired to maturity. Make some test pieces and measure them wet and dry.

If you make a cylinder by wrapping PVC with clay, wrap the plastic with newspaper first, slide form out as soon as clay firms up (we call that leather hard), then follow advice below:

S L O W  D R Y,

restrict air circulation by loosely covering, drafts will cause clay to dry unevenly and warp/break

place drying clay on porous surface such as paper, clay shrinks as it dries and will crack/break if it sticks

dry large solid pieces on a rack, loosely covered, so that all surfaces dry at the same rate 

 

ps, I really love your precision silicone "snowflakes". Could you add your metallics to the silicone? Might they coat the void when burning out? 

 

Edited by Rae Reich

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I'm wondering if you gave up on the 3-D printer too soon. Could you "print" the voided form in 1/4" (or so) sections, keyed to fit together? If you could keep them perfectly flat until leather hard and join them with a mist of water (or Magic Water), they might bond well enough for your needs. 

Just don't bend the damp clay forms, they will "remember" the bend in the firing. 

Edited by Rae Reich

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7 hours ago, yappystudent said:

What's the goal of this ambitious project? I'm curious what it will be used for. 

For now I am just following a blueprint so see where it go's.

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If you are looking for a zero shrinkage clay body,  look for the Jerry Rothman clay body.  Jerry developed a zero shrinkage clay body for his sculptural work.   His attitude was that with all we know about materials there is no rational reason for using a clay that shrinks.   I think that his clay body is still available from  Aardvark Clay.  My data from ~ten years back shows ~ 1% shrinkage fired to cone 10.  Jerry fired at ~cone 3. 
LT

 

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4 hours ago, Rae Reich said:

What you really want is a zero-shrinkage, self-curing clay: PlasterClay! But glazenerd hasn't invented it yet. :( 

 

So, as long as you're stuck with porcelain, remember that it will shrink a bit going from wet to dry and an additional 10-15% when fired to maturity. Make some test pieces and measure them wet and dry.

If you make a cylinder by wrapping PVC with clay, wrap the plastic with newspaper first, slide form out as soon as clay firms up (we call that leather hard), then follow advice below:

S L O W  D R Y,

restrict air circulation by loosely covering, drafts will cause clay to dry unevenly and warp/break

place drying clay on porous surface such as paper, clay shrinks as it dries and will crack/break if it sticks

dry large solid pieces on a rack, loosely covered, so that all surfaces dry at the same rate 

 

ps, I really love your precision silicone "snowflakes". Could you add your metallics to the silicone? Might they coat the void when burning out? 

 

Understood. 

ps metallic in the hot glue I did not think of,  That a good idea!

First attempt with the 30% is interesting, its not acting the same as the gray clay. working with it today.

 

Edited by Trout

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4 hours ago, Rae Reich said:

I'm wondering if you gave up on the 3-D printer too soon. Could you "print" the voided form in 1/4" (or so) sections, keyed to fit together? If you could keep them perfectly flat until leather hard and join them with a mist of water (or Magic Water), they might bond well enough for your needs. 

Just don't bend the damp clay forms, they will "remember" the bend in the firing. 

What got me with the 3D prints was the inside areas would shrink and pull away with cracks, with the hot glue it seems the glue would move with the clay most of the time. the 1% idea could bring back the printer attempt, I will look into this. ty

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11 hours ago, yappystudent said:

What's the goal of this ambitious project? I'm curious what it will be used for.

It appears that the op is trying to build a low energy nuclear reactor. 

 

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There are a few metals to stay away from. What we can't use, I will /did/ list. Going Nuclear from using a common microwave mag is in part... from the tungsten filament of the cathode. 

{As a remote start only} -momentary use only.   It would be a 30 page read to get up to speed with just the raw info,  The fun part is thinking out the build and sharing it.

Trout

Edit... Don't take apart a microwave oven thinking it will work! The maternal within the oven cathode is nuclear~  we can't use it .

 

Edited by Trout

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While I am still researching COE values of any given clay recipe in relation to thermal expansion properties: it occurred  to me that there is an application process relevant to your needs. CCVD or https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combustion_chemical_vapor_deposition

seeing as though you are firing in a backyard BBQ instead of an industrial furnace: raku reduction would produce the closest thing to a pure metallic layer. By the way; why is magnetite not on your grocery list?  

I have a bag of ball clay with a CEC of 18.56: it produces a brilliantly rubbery clay that fires into a rock. ( 0.31 microns)  so how to overcome the COE differentials.hmmm. Iron has a lower density than copper, equal to silica. Wonder if a metallic casting body can be had? Hmm. Freakin rabbit holes!! 

** I think Doc Brown is building a flux capacitor- he wants to go back in time or the thermite tunnel turbine. 

T

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