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Skutt or L&L?


Chad Jerzak

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Hello everyone,

 

looking to make the big purchase between either a new Skutt 1227-3, or the comparable L&L easy fire. Like the looks of the element holders on the easy fire. Have always used skutt and have an old 1027-3 from the 80's. Still fires well! Looking for the size upgrade mostly. Planning on really only firing to bisque temps. What to buy? Looking for opinions on either kiln. Price difference is not huge-skutt looks to be cheaper by about 400.00 from the online ceramic supply. What would be the equivalent Paragon kiln?

 

Thanks for any and all advice!

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What would be the equivalent Paragon kiln?

 

Hopefully our friend from Paragon who is on this board as well can give us a speel...'cus I am sitting right where you are, chad... except I'm torn between a Bailey (comes with "free" furniture kit/etc and a new set of elements on the current promo) and the L & L...and it's way cool ceramic element holders...(which truly seem like the way to go)

 

the 3 year warranty L & L offers is also a plus.

 

decision, decisions...

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I've heard great things about the L&L design, but have no experience. I've been interested in one myself for a while but haven't taken the plunge. Anyone with experience with an L&L and the other soft brick kilns like skutt that could weigh in on the element holders?

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Hello everyone,

 

looking to make the big purchase between either a new Skutt 1227-3, or the comparable L&L easy fire. Like the looks of the element holders on the easy fire. Have always used skutt and have an old 1027-3 from the 80's. Still fires well! Looking for the size upgrade mostly. Planning on really only firing to bisque temps. What to buy? Looking for opinions on either kiln. Price difference is not huge-skutt looks to be cheaper by about 400.00 from the online ceramic supply. What would be the equivalent Paragon kiln?

 

Thanks for any and all advice!

 

 

I have used L&L kilns for over 35 years, and am a big fan of them. I used them at the hs I taught in, and bought one for home that I have been firing with for the last 25 years. except for replacing floor, elements, and lid I have not had much problem. The element holder keeps the elements from doing damage to the brick, and also protects from all sorts of accidental damage-dripping glaze, bumping sides, or other things that will mess up bare brick.

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I've had an L&L Easy Fire since 2004. Love it and have no regrets. The ceramic element holders are a big plus, it's very easy to switch out the elements. The new ones install very securely and no pins are required. The one minor drawback of the ceramic element holders is when an elements fails in a way that creates a melted blob of element. That small section of the ceramic element holder must be chiseled out and replaced. It's not that hard, but I have damaged the nearby soft brick during this process. Other than that, after 7+ years of heavy use, roughly 100 firings per year, the interior of my kiln looks new. Another plus, the customer service and tech support from L&L are superb.

 

Mea

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Chad,

After doing my homework, and reading comments on this board, I purchased an L & L easy fire e23T 3 with a vent- sure down draft vent.

Love it. The computer programing is fairly straight forward. I have not programed it for a controlled cool down yet. There was

no where in Texas to buy one so I contacted one of the members on this board that sells them and ordered from him.

L & L built my kiln and had it shipped to me. The member on this board answered all my questions

before I ordered it. The price was as good as any I found on the web for the make and model I wanted. This person also serviced all types of kilns so I asked him lots of questions.

There are many great kilns out there and great companies selling them. I just got the one that best fit my needs.

Juli

if you have any questions just send me a message and I will try and answer.

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I bought a used L&L - haven't fired it yet, as we're still running electric lines and fitting out the space where I'll use it. However, I changed out elements and replace damaged element holders and brick. You can replace the holders and bricks pretty easily without damageing good brick, if you aren't afraid of unbanding, which is how I did it. Anyway, so far the most impressive thing was the customer service. When I called, they knew exactly what I needed, and got it to me promptly.

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How does the L&L glaze fire? Are there any issues with the way the coils are packed in hard holders?

 

 

Glaze firing is about the same as with other kilns, maybe even a little better as the holders direct the heat towards the kiln interior instead of loosing heat to the brick lining.

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I sell L&L Kilns because I think they are the best built kilns on the market. That said, just about any kiln out there will do the job. They all get hot. The main difference in my opinion is their durability and ease of maintenance. I repair kilns all over Chicago and Milwaukee, and no other brand holds up as well as an L&L, or is easier to work on. If you would like more specific information on what to watch out for, or benefits/issues of all brands, feel free to contact me. You really can't go wrong with any of the major brands, but some will save you some money and headaches in the long run.

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I love my L&L kiln which i bought two years ago after xmas so not only was it on sale but the shipping was free. Also bought the down draft vent and have been most happy with the firings. My previous kiln was a Jen Ken which i bought used, it was a manual and i had it for ten yrs and sold it when we moved. It was 40 yrs old by then but still in great shape, all the bricks inside still like new, never changed an element only the replaced the kiln sitter holders when they got worn.

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I have had my L&L for about 3 years now and love it. I've had to replace a relay and all three thermocouples, but that was easy to do. The tech support is wonderful and I consider that a huge plus when purchasing any piece of equipment, pottery or otherwise. So far I've only used the pre-programmed firing schedules and have not had a problem. I ordered it with the downdraft vent. There's no leaving the lid cracked open or peeps open, then closing it all up at a certain time......just load it, close everything up, turn on the vent, punch in the firing and press 'start'. The kiln looks as good, inside and out, as the day I installed it. The manual is straightforward and easy to use.

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I have owned 3 skutts over 35 years an can honestly say get an L&L

the stainless is a low quality-they use steel screws which rust out over time

The overall quality is ok just a lot of cheap cost saving steps make skutts less than trouble free

If I where buying a new electric I'd get a L&L-better materials make a better kiln-YES THEY COST A LITTLE MORE BUT YOU WILL GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR.-

Mark

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  • 4 years later...

Whatever you do do not buy an L&L. They are utter crap. My e28-t can't get to cone 6 with four levels (fully loaded) even with the heavy duty elements. It is under powered and they admit this themselves. I spent months on the phone with their tech support person, who stutters trying to figure out why the kiln wasn't firing correctly. Turned out it simply can't. I just purchased their kiln wall replacement kit. Followed the directions strictly and nothing adhered. I called and got some suggestions, re-did it with more moisture, fired the kiln as per instructions and when I opened it the pieces had fallen out. If there is one thing L&L knows how to do it is to build crap. The control box was mounted visibly crooked, it arrived with cracks everywhere and is so far inferior to my other 2 kilns (Skutt and Cone Art) that should my life depend upon it I will never purchase an L&L product again. Skutt is everything I want in a kiln and in a company. Though a bit cool, their tech support is great. My next kiln will be a Skutt PK kiln.

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kdavitt22,

Reading the specs on the e28t in reference to the needed single Phase 240 and 208 voltage, it is not recommended for consistent cone 6 firing. I direct you to http://hotkilns.com/e28t-3. 

 

Now as to the condition of the kiln upon receive, I that is a problem. However, under all circumstances in my experience they have stood behind the product.

 

 

best,

Pres

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Pres that link does not work well.

Takes you to a page that moved.

 

I'm not a big skutt fan after owning 3 of their kilns.

If I ever buy a new electric it will be a L&L for these reasons-the element holders and ease of self service.

Skutt has used the low end stainless jacket that rusts badly and discontinued so many items it is hard to repair older models -you have to hard wire all sections together which makes moving sections a royal pain-this is older kilns not newer kilns.

Since I live close to Portland(8 hours) the parts come fast but after years of replacing cheap screws-rusty handles-bands that snap after rusting thru-I have come to the end of skutt in terms of buying one again-yes they are cheaper on the up front cost but you get what you pay for.

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kdavitt22, I have to say I am more than a little surprised by your experience with L&L.  My L&L is 5 years old with over 500 firings.  It has been a workhorse.  I have found their customer service to be unsurpassed.  Stephen Leuwiki (the president of the company) has emailed me back at midnight and made certain I had my questions and concerns answered.  I cannot imagine they would not take care of the obvious flaws.  I read through the hotkilns website and indeed your kiln is not rated to fire consistently to cone 5/6 if you are single phase.  If you bought this kiln brand new, I know it is under warranty to get things fixed.  I would urge you to give them another chance.  Or like the website says, you might want a different kiln. 

Roberta

Note about  e28T-3 Easy-Fire Kiln on 1 phase power

The e28T-3 kiln is only rated for Cone 8 when the power supply is 240 volts, 1 phase. It is only rated for Cone 5 when the power supply is 208 volts, 1 phase.

A cone rating should be several cones higher than the cone you plan to fire to. Elements in a kiln that is rated for cone 8 will not last very long when firing to cone 5 or 6 especially with heavy loads.

That said- if you answer yes to any of these following questions, you probably want to go with a more powerful L&L, like the eQ2827-3 or the JD2927-3-QD (if you need UL listing). Both of these kilns, in the single phase versions, have more power (watts) than the e28T-3 and will consistently deliver the power you need to reach Cone 6. On the other hand, both the 240 and 208 volt three phase versions of the e28T-3 deliver plenty of power (watts), so this note does not apply to three phase e28T-3 models.

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I hadn't heard of L&L until I started teaching at my current district.  The previous classrooms I was in had Skutt.  I don't have a problem with Skutt, I think they are good kilns.  However the Skutt I used in my first classroom burnt through two sets of elements in the six years I was there.  This was just doing low fire work, with a digital controller.  

 

I have been at my current district for five years, and the elements are doing just fine.  I know that they have never been replaced either, so add several more years to their age.

 

The only thing that I've had to replace were the thermocouples.  I emailed their customer service to make sure I was ordering the correct part, and they quickly responded and assured that I was.  

 

I am very happy with my classroom L&L.  If my home Skutt ever dies, I'll look into getting a L&L to replace it.

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I happen to own two L&L kilns, one is computer controlled and the other I think was made in 1972. The old kiln still looks great inside and works just fine. I've called L&L a few times and always received competent and rapid answers to my questions. I personally think they make one of the best electric kilns on the market. The element holders really protect the bricks. The Skutt's at the college work well but the amount of brick damage is really extensive. While the missing chunks of bricks don't effect the firing, they certainly make the kilns show their age.

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Do not know what size kiln you are looking at, but Paragons 1613-3 is the best bang for the buck IMO. 1.75CF with 6800 watts of power, I use it to melt other kilns>evil grin. I am biased; I own four Paragons. Do the kiln wattage math however: for cone 6-10 you need 1800 watts per CF at a minimum. In addition, if this will be your firing range mostly: minimum of 3" brick. Everyone has their own criteria and bias.

Nerd

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Whatever you do do not buy an L&L. They are utter crap. My e28-t can't get to cone 6 with four levels (fully loaded) even with the heavy duty elements. It is under powered and they admit this themselves. I spent months on the phone with their tech support person, who stutters trying to figure out why the kiln wasn't firing correctly. Turned out it simply can't. I just purchased their kiln wall replacement kit. Followed the directions strictly and nothing adhered. I called and got some suggestions, re-did it with more moisture, fired the kiln as per instructions and when I opened it the pieces had fallen out. If there is one thing L&L knows how to do it is to build crap. The control box was mounted visibly crooked, it arrived with cracks everywhere and is so far inferior to my other 2 kilns (Skutt and Cone Art) that should my life depend upon it I will never purchase an L&L product again. Skutt is everything I want in a kiln and in a company. Though a bit cool, their tech support is great. My next kiln will be a Skutt PK kiln.

 

Yes, L&L does admit that the E28T is underpowered, and they are very clear about it in all of their literature. That said, I have many customers who fire their E28T to cone 6 every week with no problems. They are on 240V single phase power, and even though it's a cone 8 kiln, it handles cone 6 just fine. There's obviously something going on with your specific kiln, or you're loading it with very dense loads which it just can't handle. It's also possible that you have a low service voltage problem or something like that. I'd be happy to work with you to try to figure out the problem. What year was your kiln made?

 

This is not just an L&L issue, though. Any 28x28 inch kiln that only pulls 48 amps, whether it's an L&L or Skutt or Paragon or whatever, will only be rated for cone 8 at 240V 1 phase service, or cone 5 at 208V 1 phase. These models are all part of their 'plug and play' series', where you don't have to hard wire them. Anything over 50 amps has to be hard wired. The L&L E28T and the Skutt KM1227 have the exact same temperature ratings.

 

If you want more power in a large kiln like that, you'll need to go up to an 80 amp breaker, which requires hard wiring. All brands offer higher power models like that. The Skutt PK is one example, but all brands make higher powered models. And you can't compare a Skutt PK to an L&L E28T or Skutt KM1227. That's apples to oranges.

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