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Does This Make Sense? (Purchasing Equipment On Credit)


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I'm finally putting my foot down and purchasing a peter pugger. I work a lot with stained clay and also recycle clay by hand and I can see it's not the best thing for my wrists.

 

The site allows purchase of equipment on credit and I've qualified.

The peter pugger itself is just under $5000 but after interests I'm locked into paying $7400 total when all said and done (24 month payment plan)

 

The other option is to pay downpayment and in all pay $5800 (12 month payment plan)

 

The lady on the line said the 24 month plan would be beneficial for building up credit for the company. BTW I already have a credit card I've used for other equipment purchase (wheel, kiln)

 

Is there value to what she's saying? Or is it a no brainer to go with what'll be just $5800 in the end?

 

Would love to hear your thoughts on this. I'm trying to learn what I have not considered.

 

Thank you

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Random thoughts

 

$2400 can buy a lot of clay.

 

The only company that benefits from the 24 month plan is the company selling it.

 

That seems like a high interest rate, how much is it (I'm guessing around 7%)? Go to your bank and ask them what their rates are on a small loan.

 

I don't know what your needs are in a pugmill but Baileys has them starting at $2200.

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Are you in business? A corporation or sole proprietor? Does your business take Section 179 deductions on your taxes when you purchase equipment, or do you take a depreciation expense deduction instead?

 

The financing that Peter Pugger is offering is a leasing arrangement that allows you to take annual expense deductions on your business tax return, rather than having to depreciate the purchase over time according the depreciation rules. For some businesses this can result in lower taxes that can make the lease option more favorable.

 

This would be something to evaluate with the help of your accountant.

 

If none of the above makes any sense to you, then you are probably going to be better off buying the pugger with your credit card, and being disciplined in making the maximum payment that you can to pay off the purchase as quickly as possible (ETA: or talking to your bank as Ron suggests).

 

Just to note that the 24 month plan resulting in a total payment of $7400 on a $5000 purchase, works out to over 40% interest rate!

 

In terms of the building of credit rating thing -- if you have a business, and are trying to build it's credit rating, then the lease option might be valuable; but then I would ask is the credit card in your name personally or is it a business credit card?

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$5800 is a reasonable amount of interest to pay. $7400 is not, under any circumstances, a reasonable amount of interest to pay over 2 years.

 

I bought a pugmill when I couldn't keep up with demand, and was profitable enough to pay cash. This means the labor-saved went into making more pots, and meeting more demand. If you are in a similar boat, then there is no argument that it's time for a pugmill.

 

I bought a used pugmill for $1200. Peter Pugger is maybe the most expensive small pugmill. Are you sure you need that one? You can buy a new Bailey for less than $3000. If this price point means you can pay cash for the whole thing, you will be much better off by avoiding the debt.

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Mea, those lower cost Bailey seems to say it's just for deairing and not really for mixing. Also I'm a 100% porcelain shop so the interior needs to be stainless steel.

Exactly which model were you referencing? Thank you

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Mea, those lower cost Bailey seems to say it's just for deairing and not really for mixing. Also I'm a 100% porcelain shop so the interior needs to be stainless steel.

Exactly which model were you referencing? Thank you

This one: https://www.baileypottery.com/Bailey-Pottery/Product-Details/%20A-400-DEAIRING-PUGMILL-C126201

 

But you're right it's not stainless steel and it's not a mixer. The stainless version is $3215. A pugmil can do a lot of the mixing for you, but you'd probably have to finish it by hand.

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My thought is the 7400 is way to much-

If you are going to make it in clay you need to control costs-

I have a petter pugger and I bought mine used-I suggest buying a used one-yes this will take some time to find the one you need but in my last 3 years after I bought mine I have seen almost every model come up used for sale at different venues from Petter puggers web site to e-bay -to potters web-and a few others. 

As a new start up keeping cost s low is a key element.

My thought is keep wedging until you have more money for equipment-look for the unit used and be patient.

I. bought my VPM30 for 2,800 and it cost about $300 to ship it from Iowa.

 

So no it makes no sense to do this on credit with them.

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Peter Pugger posts reconditioned pugmills on their website, but just be aware that it is not regularly updated.  I called about one over a year and a half ago (before I ended up buying new) and it had sold 6 months before.  I let The company know, but I just checked and it is still listed - 2 years after it was sold.  These are really hard to find used.  They took my offer of a few hundred off list price and I sent a check.  If you are looking for the VPM-20, it is pretty easy to build a heavy-duty rolling table better and cheaper than the one they sell. 

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Will someone please explain to me why you would PAY $5,000 to re-use diluted clay rather than buy fresh, new clay with the money?

 

I can see it in a teaching studio or a large operation with low pay helpers doing the chore ....

but not if the 'talent' is doing this job instead of creating pots.

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Will someone please explain to me why you would PAY $5,000 to re-use diluted clay rather than buy fresh, new clay with the money?

 

LOL, I wish I could give you a dozen likes for that one

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Will someone please explain to me why you would PAY $5,000 to re-use diluted clay rather than buy fresh, new clay with the money?

 

I can see it in a teaching studio or a large operation with low pay helpers doing the chore ....

but not if the 'talent' is doing this job instead of creating pots.

I think folks just cannot wrap their hearts and heads around tossing out clay. Everything seems so precious to many. 

As a production potter I threw away all my trimmings for over 3 decades -just not worth the effort 3 -5 gallon buckets a week.I still toss out the trimmings  every week. (dry porcelain trimmings do not slake and throw well after processing)

The reason to have one of these machines for me is you can make hard clay soft -soft clay hard -you can mix your own bodies and as a side note you can reclaim your wet scrap.Since my wrist surgery I use the machine for all my wedging .They call it a power wedger

Since a ton of clay is say around $500 it will take a long time for this to pay for itself.

I bought mine to be able to continue working in clay without 3 wrist bones on my right hand.It has made a differance. I cannot tolerate hard clay anymore and since I buy 10 tons at one time it slowly gets are and I can soften it very easily .

The question is will I get my $3200 out of it  before I cannot use it anymore?-well maybe not in clay costs but in income at over 100K in pottery gross sales a year even a 5 year

extension  to working my answer is yes payback will happen. I think most the answer is no.They do keep a solid resale price. so you can sell it later and still have some $.

I hope some of these circumstances show some not so thought of beneficial uses.

What I cannot wrap around is the small units that process 7-25#s-they make no sense to me.They are made for the hobby market and they are selling like hotcakes.Its like a kitchen aid mixer that only works with a 1/4 cup of ingredients.Yet the cost almost as much as a full size machine.

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Like Mark said, for me it's not just for reclaiming, it's a power wedger. A full timer shouldn't spend their labor wedging.

 

I go through about 1.5 tons per year. If I had been wedging it all by hand, I probably wouldn't still be in business. Or, if I had been trying to throw hard, uneven, square-cornered pieces of clay, I probably wouldn't still be in business.

 

With the pugmill, I throw soft, homogenous, already round pieces of clay. I waste no time fighting with my clay.

 

There are days when I try throwing pugged clay that has been sitting around long enough to get stiff. At the end of the day, I'll be very sore. Not worth it, and not sustainable. I'd really like to avoid having my wrist bones removed!

 

As for the reclaim part, with bagged clay you can't control how hard it is. Reclaimed slop can be as soft or dry as you want. I use it to condition bagged clay into the softness that I want. Slop made from wheel trimmings is only a small part of what I reclaim. Most of what I reclaim are scraps from handbuilding with slabs. This does not need to be slaked or dried, just put through the pugmill again to be wedged back together.

 

I spend about $1600 on clay per year. I estimate that about 20% of my clay is reclaimed. So that's $320 of free clay per year. I paid $1200 for a used pugmill in 2008. It has more than paid for itself in free clay.

 

Edit to add: I should clarify that I am speaking of the value of a pugmill to someone who is primarily a thrower, and producing above a volume that makes hand-wedging unsustainable.

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+1 for what has already been said for the advantages of having a pug mill by Mea and Mark. 

 

I wish I’ld bought mine at the beginning of my career. Got mine around the time I had a complete tear of my bicep (long head) on my right side. I’ve also have had several sentinel lymph nodes removed from right side for other reasons. Supposed to reduce “trauma†on that side now to help prevent lymphedema in right arm. The clay I use is fairly expensive so I do reclaim everything and have also mixed clay from scratch with it. That wasn't worth the dust and time but I learned from it.

 

 

Buy a pug mill or not, this is isn't a one size fits all decision. 

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Ok ... I get it for wedging.

 

** later ...

one crucial item many potters overlook is that the most expensive item in your studio is YOU.

YOUR TIME ... That's it. Number one. Nothing else is more costly than your time.

 

If you enjoy tasks that take you away from the process, then fine.

 

But if you want to build a business and pay the mortgage then start thinking seriously about your time.

 

If a pug mill means saving wear and tear on your body, thus more time to do what you love, great! Worth every cent.

BUT .. if you spend hours re-cycling .40 cent clay ... maybe not a good use of your time.

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one thing I will add is that we have a small 25# peter pugger and use 100% porcelain. It is not stainless and yes it has pitted since I've left clay in between uses but haven't seen any problems from that. All you really need to do to avoid pitting is clean it out between uses. That might sound like a huge hassle but its not really that big of deal, After a few cleanings it becomes very predictable and easy, couple of bolts and wiping down. I doubt it takes me more than 15 minutes to clean it out after use when I'm in a hurry. It doesn't pit from using porcelain, it pits from porcelain sitting in it all the time.

 

I assume you do reclaim in batches and could easily do coloring the same way, We only paid 3800 new but that was 6-7 years ago now.

 

I second the used route. I see 1000-1500 pugmills come up regularly on facebook marketplace on potters attic and some look to be in great shape.   

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Purchasing any major equipment is a decision unique to each potter.  I bought my pug mill for a couple anticipated uses (including recycling scrap) and have found it far more useful that I expected.  As Mea noted, it is a great tool for adjusting the softness of clay.  I throw some items with soft clay (plates and flower pots) and other with stiffer clay (tall forms and mugs).  I just pug a batch (around 35#) for whatever I am planning to throw.  The consistent diameter pugs are also very easy to cut into regular lengths to save weighing clay for repetitive forms. 

 

Here are some of the other uses for which the pug mill is a great help:

1) Adding things to commercial clays.  I was getting a lot of minor warping on my cone 6 commercial bodies, even firing at a good cone 6.  I regularly add a couple pounds of fireclay and a couple pounds of sand to each pug mill load and that has perfectly fixed the problem.

 

2) Mixing clays.  I really like the speckling of a commercial Laguna clay, but there is more than I need.  I have lots of porcelain, brown and red clays that all play well together.  I use at least half the speckled clay and then just add whatever else I feel like.

 

3) I am now also producing a lot of pots for cone 10 wood firing.  It only takes a few minutes to scrape out the pug mill and then I can switch back and forth (about every month) between the regular cone 6 production and cone 10 clays.  There are not many commercial clays that do what I want for wood firing, and they can get fairly expensive.  I can make my own from powdered ingredients for considerably less (depending on the recipe) and I can make whatever modifications I want.  I usually just pug out a load for that day's work and then throw the next day's dry mix and water into the mill.  I mix it for a while and then let it sit overnight.  The next day it starts all over again.  There is definitely something satisfying about mixing your own clay body. 

 

4) Although I don't do this, there is also the potential to use the pug mill as an extruder. 

 

Deciding on such a large investment should not be taken lightly.  I could not be much happier with my decision, but it would not work for everyone.  The nice thing about a good pug mill is that even if it did not work out for you, the resale is very high.  I purchased mine at a time where the tax write-off was very helpful.  I would definitely think hard about racking up a lot of debt to purchase one. 

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I have a bailey desiring pug mill with an aluminum body. I use it for porcelain and raku. I use to buy my clay mixed in large quantities (for me, not Mark). And sometimes if I am way for 6 weeks at a residency or moving, my clay can need some pugging. The aluminum body does not hurt my porcelain. I clean it out when I am finished. It is very easy to do. Much easier to clean than an old walker.If you could find one of those, they are work horses and the fastest pugger I ever used if you don't overload it.

 

I would not pay the interest on that. As said 2400 buys a lot of clay. Save for it, get a cheaper loan, find a used one. Chris's point of saving your body should be well taken.

 

 

Marcia

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Guest JBaymore

Another more "radical" thought in here is .................. why reclaim at all?

 

Clay is cheap........ you time (and your body) is not.  The most massive factor in the cost of producing our work is our time.

 

Once you've reached a skilled level, how many saleable pieces, for what Dollar volume, could you make out of X pounds of new clay in the time it takes to reclaim the old stuff?  What do you figure your time is worth?  (Remember.... there is pressure to make minimum wage $15 an hour.  Here in NH.... a minimum "liveable wage" is considered $19 per hour.  Burger flippers around here get about $10 an hour.)

 

Maybe simply give the scrap to some poor, just-starting-out ceramics student to reclaim for themselves.  They get to learn the process of reclaiming, they learn to respect the material, they don't have to spend money on material, the materials go to a good use, and you get to actually make work instead of 'maintaining the shop'.

 

Some folks would say "heresy",....... but it is worth considering.  There is no one right answer for all situations.

 

And in my life's journey... I've learned (the hard way) that if there is ANY possibility for paying cash for what you need,...... and not paying ANY interest costs........ THAT is the way to go.  That is precisely how many people who are already wealthy are able to accrue more wealth seemingly so easily.  They have money they can use to MAKE some more money...rather than just 'squeezing by'.  So I'd think long and hard before buying pottery equipment with any kind of financing (except 0% financing... and then that is a total NO BRAINER).  The equipment has to clearly earn back its cost plus any interest within the timeframe of the loan.

 

Let's say you need to buy a car for $20K.  If you have the $20 K sitting in a mattress somewhere..... you plop that down and the car is yours.  (Yes, cars depreciate really fast.... but we said you NEEDED that car.)  So now.... if you have to finance that $20K for 5 years at 5% interest........ you will pay someone else $22,645.50 for the car, not $20K.  That means that you basically "lost" $2645.50 of your money that could have gone into a bank account or an investment or at the least back into that mattress.  Places like Synchrony Bank are paying 1% plus for straight savings deposits.  They have 3 year CDs paying well more than that.  Not a lot, but that money is coming to YOU.... not you giving it to someone else.  There are other banks that offer the same kinds of returns (look around).  Better yet, put the interest payments you would have paid into a IRA or ROTH IRA each month.

 

"Business skills" really do include personal finance skills.  That old adage "pay yourself first" is an important one to learn.

 

best,

 

.......................john

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