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Poor Basic Skill Sets, And Their Consequences


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My thought on youtube only learning is you get what you pay for-that is there are so many wrong youtube things that you have to know whats not good and that as a beginner is almost Imposable to know that. Hence you will be learning the wrong way just as likely the right way.

Learning to throw at some point you need to have a Human in the flesh be around a little-my 2 cents

I was thinking on being a brain surgeon and was going to learn from youtube-what could go wrong?I was going to work on potatoes for a few weeks first.

I have watched youtube vids, and find my self thinking. . . It only makes sense because you have the same or better skills than the demonstrator. It is memorizing at times to sit and watch a time lapse set up where the ball of clay appears, is centered, the form grows, becomes inflated for volume, is cut from the wheel, trimmed and bisqued and then glazed. WOW too bad things didn't happen so magically! I really don't learn a whole lot new, except for different throwing positions, hand positions, and sometimes a new trimming quirk. 

 

best,

Pres

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Hi Mark, Pres, and everyone.

 

It's not as simple as "you get what you pay for." There are a lot of us out here that had nothing but the youtube videos to work with. My desire to throw

Pots started in grade 7 or 8, a grade school 'art class'. If memory serves, I had about 2 days (about 1 hour each day) to work with clay, the first day

I made an ashtray for my Dad, in the shape of an curled up alligator, the second day I got to try to make a cup for Mom. I think the next week

Was watercolors or something but God how I loved the wheel.

 

It was 55 or so years before I got to see a pottery wheel again, and another 2 years until I was offered the chance to sit at one.

 

I need to cut this short, I'm taking up too much of your time. When I built my pottery wheel I didn’t have a clue about where to find a potters class

I found my first clay at a craft store. Potters where people that lived in Ashville NC. And fired their wares in wood fired kilns next to their barn.

I wish I could remember who gave me the idea to check the yellow pages, but it was either my youngest daughter, or my wife.

 

That's when I met my first real potter, ( the poor guy, he's had it pretty rough. I think the first thing I asked was if I could by about 10 lbs of clay).

 

This is getting way too long. Bottom line: the internet was all I had, I'm still trying to unlearn 3 or 4 years of youtube videos.

But they were WAY BETTER than nothing.

 

Graybeard

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One thing there is on the net is paid learning classes from folks who are teaching ceramics. There have been a few posted here.

You can find then at the bottom of main page -Ceramic events.

Seems that way you get to learn the right way or at least its stacked in that direction.

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Graybeard ... don't feel too bad about unlearning videos ... my first pottery teacher was a nice lady but nearly everything she taught as a hard and fast rule was WRONG ... it took me at least ten years to fix all the useless wrong stuff and I am sure there is still some of it rattling around in my head just waiting to be exposed! Her rules were just her sketchy opinions ...ugh!

She is the reason why my number one answer to questions is ... " it depends ..."

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You can also research the you tube potter before watching their videos. Simon Leach is a very respected potter and he has hundreds of instructional videos that I think all would agree are quality instruction by a very good potter.

 

It's a little like online degrees. There are plenty of good, first rate, regionally accredited, online university degree programs AND there are hundreds of diploma mills with phony accreditation. But its that way in the non digital world too :-)

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Guest JBaymore

One thing there is on the net is paid learning classes from folks who are teaching ceramics. There have been a few posted here.

You can find then at the bottom of main page -Ceramic events.

Seems that way you get to learn the right way or at least its stacked in that direction.

 

Have to say that just because something is a "paid" situation... does not mean that is it necessarily a good one.  There are a lot of 'not-so-good' internet videos, paid online classes, paid real world classes, (paid) magazine articles, (paid) books, and paid community education and college education classes out there.

 

Caveat Emptor... and vet your sources.

 

best,

 

......................john

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 One of the biggest mistakes is to rely on your sense of sight, not touch.

 

To clarify so I'm understanding correctly, I should rely more on feel than sight?

 

 

Yes, close your eyes.  Feel the force.

 

When I took my classes Wheel consisted of basically one session watching the teacher at the wheel and then getting on it and trying myself. Not much instruction, I had no idea about so much and have just been figuring it out myself with help from here, videos, books, etc.

 

First thing I discovered was I couldn't center for the life of me until I closed my eyes. As soon as I did this the clay TOLD ME what it needed. I find closing my eyes to center the clay also centers me. Puts me in the right frame of mind and more connected to the clay. I tell my students now to listen to their clay it's telling them what it needs. It's funny when they close their eyes and try centering that way for the first time and they go, "OH! I knew exactly what it needed to make it centered!" Such a simple thing yet often overlooked. I only teach basic Wheel as I feel it is my weakest forming method mostly because of back issues. But I try and give them a good foundation to build on as they practice on their own.

 

T

 

+1

 

Graybeard ... don't feel too bad about unlearning videos ... my first pottery teacher was a nice lady but nearly everything she taught as a hard and fast rule was WRONG ... it took me at least ten years to fix all the useless wrong stuff and I am sure there is still some of it rattling around in my head just waiting to be exposed! Her rules were just her sketchy opinions ...ugh!

She is the reason why my number one answer to questions is ... " it depends ..."

 

Oh yeah, mine too.  Her favourite answer when I questioned anything was "because you can't".  

Why can't you use ^6 glaze in ^06 firing?  Because you can't.  Why not?  Because.  

Why do have to put a hole in?  Because.  Occasionally when really pushed the answer became:  Because the air will expand and it will blow up.

 

Grrrr.  

 

Now, I know ythe truth,  but her answers just weren't enough for me.  

 

The best teachers give technically correct answers, but also offer the means to explore and find out too.

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the best advice i ever got for centering was "let the wheel do the work".   my hand was only a steel rod tucked into my body to help keep it from moving with the clay.

 

at one time, ceramics monthly had a tip, use your forearm for a large lump of clay.  and to avoid bloodshed, use a leather boot with the foot cut off to protect the arm.

 

it worked.

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Preeta,

I taught throwing for decades. I would squeeze the student's hand to show how much pressure it took to push clay, then I would squeeze their hand again to show them the pressure between the fingers was much greater than that pushing the clay. The fingers need to be tensed or steady or braced when early stages of pulling up begin. It gets much more gentle as the walls develop. I'd tell them not to get pushed around by a few pounds of clay. Also, the throwing lines should be more horizontal than quickly pulling up so the lines are at 45 degrees. Try to keep them at 15 -20 degrees. Then if you want looser forms you can get it after you get your height.

 

For centering I recommend shaping igloos (hemispheres) to cone shapes and back about 3 times.

 

Marcia

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As I have said before, there are so many ways to center, and to throwing. I was demonstating this weekend-bowls. I did a 3 lb bowl, opening up with my hand, and throwing with only the aid of a sponge. This to show the "purist" attitude that I dealt with 30 years ago, where ribs were crutches. Then I threw a 15 lb bowl using my lft forearm to center, and my rt elbow to open up supporting the rt wrist with the left hand. So this showed that well centered piece of clay could be opened without using support on the outside. I also used ribs at in the shaping showing that you could move a rib up and down to expand the form without a hand on the outside to support the form. Again lots of fallacies out there, and habits that get broken after more experience on the wheel. Should a beginner try to open without the other hand for support, probably not. However, the options are there as you get comfortable with throwing, and the only way to get comfortable is throw. . .  throw . . . throw! :)

 

best,

Pres

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nancylee pardon me for saying it. i can only say it by being politically incorrect. and i dont know what the correct word is.

 

this is an issue i see wherever there is a wheel. all the time. doesnt matter the age. or experience. 

 

and i dont know if fear is the right word. but its easier for me to say it. its this holding back. as oldlady said just be a wall. essentially you are being a human jigger.

 

if you have truly understood the principle of centering then the amount should not matter. if you can move a 4lb bag of cat litter you can also move a 20lb of cat litter. you just have to come up with a different plan.

 

i have found just being dogged and pushing through helps. 

 

everytime i throw an extra lb of clay its almost like starting all over again. i have to figure out how to manage more clay with the human tools i have. i have to figure out how to stay in control of the clay. 

 

if you throw regularly on weekdays then dont start throwing 4lbs on monday. get your body going and then throw midweek. 

 

i still havent figured out centering yet. completely. many teachers have tried to show me. but my body and brain havent fully understood it yet. i am still centering as a beginner (by that i mean i lose some clay while centering). i havent had any help to show me how to throw bigger so i have had to figure out myself. thinking of a wall and jigger has really helped me. sitting the right way has helped a lot. 

 

i cant bear to see fellow students suffer. so i offer advice even when not asked for or needed. simple things like move your stool closer and lean in more... and it all makes such a big difference. or they are about to stop and i tell them. dont. do more shape more. now you know how to make that size. if you fail and make a hole you can throw another one like that. so push and see how big you can really get. 

 

but as pres said just throw, throw, throw. that's how i got passed 3 lbs. just dig your heels in and dont give up. 

 

MARCIA - i wish profs would do what you did. but i see now a fear of touching. esp. if you are a male teacher. most of the students are female. it makes such a big difference. since i have lots of gray hair i no longer am afraid and girl or boy i touch and show the pressure. i always get a shocked response. 

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Guest JBaymore

 i wish profs would do what you did. but i see now a fear of touching. esp. if you are a male teacher. most of the students are female. it makes such a big difference. since i have lots of gray hair i no longer am afraid and girl or boy i touch and show the pressure. i always get a shocked response. 

 

I have a significant background in sports education (former Ed. Staff member for the Professional Ski Instructors of America organization) as well as ceramics.  (Lots of transferable biomechanics training :) !)  One of the things common from sports is doing "hands on" work to get an athlete to kinesthetically understand the way his/her body is currently being used and what the desired outcome might be for a more effective method.

 

I use that understanding in teaching throwing.  And I ALWAYS involve some touch with the students.  And ....male or female student... just like in sports education..... I simply ASK before I touch them if it is OK to do that.  I have always (in both fields) gotten 100% affirmatives.  I don't do "private" lessons in clay... so there are always others in the room also.

 

I cannot IMAGINE not being able to share tactile and kinesthetic aspects of what it means to do various activities in throwing.  Analogies and "word pictures" and technical descriptions and visuals are NOT enough to teach well an activity that REQUIRES human high touch on materials.

 

 

best,

 

...................john

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add to that list drummer too john :)

 

that is great you DO that. i agree. i cant think of showing without 'touching'. i discovered that myself when i was first learning. i had the TA show me what they mean by pressure. that was the only way i could learn.  one of my costudents has been throwing for a year. a full year. when she was talking about the bottom of the bowl i made her stand and pushed my shoulder against hers so she got what strength she needed to push in. she came back in 15 mins and showed me a bowl she just threw double the size she had been throwing. a 6 x 4 inch bowl. 

 

another prof. would not use tactile senses either. 

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The last ceramics class I took was at a community college, it was accredited. It was a total beginner's course for students who were not required to -have previously- touched clay, most hadn't like me. The youngish teacher put a paper syllabus in front of each student and disappeared into her studio for most of the course to work on her own stuff because she was getting ready for an art show. When I made a small sculpture without knowing I needed to hollow it out, I got a lot of eye rolling from her teacher's aides as you might imagine. I did enjoy that other class, it's just the teacher and her aides that were worthless. The old guys potting against the wall were actually helpful and nice. One girl (not me) mixed dry top ramen into her sculpture piece for texture not knowing it would create a bomb. What I'm saying I seem to end up having to learn everything the hard way even when I try to do it properly. Since then I've learned everything I know about ceramics (except to love it, and I do) from two ancient books and youtube videos. It's not my fault I can't find someone who wants to share their knowledge, it's not been for lack of trying. I have a small studio in my house where I do hand building and I'm learning by making a ton of small stuff and keeping copious notes.

That said, I'm taking a "community education" type class from a different college this spring and I can't wait.

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One of my problems with Penn State was the use of student aids to teach assist with the classes even in the frequent absence of the teacher. I really don't know if this was the university's procedure, or if it was just the Fine Arts Department. I was basically teaching my 3 or 4th year of ceramics in a well outfitted HS with specialized ceramics classes, not just units. These grad assistants would not know beans about how to teach, or how to approach it. Many times my skills were way over and above theirs in areas like throwing, construction and decorating. Frustrating to be paying for a class, and not being challenged to do more. I guess they figured the challenge had to come from within, but all so often some form of direction is needed to get the ball rolling. There was very little of that. Maybe again to, it was because I took my classes in the Summers when I had more personal time to devote to class work.

 

 

best,

Pres

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The last ceramics class I took was at a community college, it was accredited. It was a total beginner's course for students who were not required to -have previously- touched clay, most hadn't like me. The youngish teacher put a paper syllabus in front of each student and disappeared into her studio for most of the course to work on her own stuff because she was getting ready for an art show. When I made a small sculpture without knowing I needed to hollow it out, I got a lot of eye rolling from her teacher's aides as you might imagine. I did enjoy that other class, it's just the teacher and her aides that were worthless. The old guys potting against the wall were actually helpful and nice. One girl (not me) mixed dry top ramen into her sculpture piece for texture not knowing it would create a bomb. What I'm saying I seem to end up having to learn everything the hard way even when I try to do it properly. Since then I've learned everything I know about ceramics (except to love it, and I do) from two ancient books and youtube videos. It's not my fault I can't find someone who wants to share their knowledge, it's not been for lack of trying. I have a small studio in my house where I do hand building and I'm learning by making a ton of small stuff and keeping copious notes.

That said, I'm taking a "community education" type class from a different college this spring and I can't wait.

 

Thats a pretty sorry excuse for an intro ceramics class! Glad to hear you are having another go at it with a different college. If you are looking for another book to add to your collection, or borrow from the library, Vince Pitelka's Clay a Studio Handbook revised edition is an excellent one. A very comprehensive, well written book. 

(ps, ramen noodles won't turn a sculpture into a bomb, damp clay going into the kiln will though. Rice, noodles, sawdust, coffee grinds etc will all burn out in the kiln just fine as long as the pot is dry going into it)

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That's good to know, both the books and the not a bomb thing. In my defense the teacher threw a hissy at that student and refused to fire her work. Seriously she didn't look at anyone's first assignments until they were dry and ready to be loaded. Yes it was a terrible class because of her. 

 

My books:

Ceramics, a potter's handbook, by Glenn C. Nelson, 1966 printing ((I really love this book even though it's falling apart))

A Potter's Book, Bernard Leach 5th printing 1976. ((pretty archaic stuff))

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