Can Tall Teapots Like These Be Handbuilt? These Are Extruded

[Marcia Selsor]

Nancy,

don't give up on throwing. As mark said , it took him 8 years. That is about what it Takes. Michael Cardew said 7 years as an apprentice. I think it took me about that long somewhere in that range. Try throwing slower and drier.

Marcia

[Marcia Selsor]

I did a workshop with David about 11 years ago thru the potters council in Mendocino. He does do a lot of extruded forms.

adds feet to them and twisted them.

 

My friend pumps out teapots and vases using slabs (all cut with cardboard templates) very whimsical .

He is my salt kiln partner and very good old friend from way back and he is extremely talented in clay and wood.More talent than my mere words can express .

You can see some of his work below

 

After looking at his work send him some kind thoughts as he is need of them now.

 

You do not need an extruder to get that look.It may be easier for twisted forms for sure.

Nancy I suggest more classwork with other potters to help you improve the throwing skills. 

It took me about 8 years to fully master throwing looking back-started in high school(Bought a wheel at 18) and about 4 years after collage  I had it down. I thought I knew how all during collage but looking back that was not reality.Basically threw as much as I could for years and tears and years. Its not for every student as you said(I could not draw figures in art school) but I tried like mad because you needed that class to get the art degree. It was improvement that I was graded on-I still cannot draw figures.

Mark,

Your friends work is really nice. I wish him well. I started drawing as a child and stuck with it for years before I discovered clay. I use to teach drawing using Betty Edward's book, Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain.I still love drawing and incorporate it into my work. We all develop in our own way.How's the cough?

 

Marcia

[preeta]

Nancy can you take classes somewhere near you where they have a full studio?

 

i feel there's no point in buying an extruder without at least trying it out first. our school has a manual extruder and i have to say its not that easy to use. you  have to put the die and clay properly to get it right. that calls for some careful assessment. if its a manual extruder you also need to have some strength to push the clay through. 

 

pardon me for asking but what exactly do you find hard about handbuildilng? there are so many methods of handbuilding - does not one of them work for you? 

 

do you have to make functional ware? can you not make animals or sculptural pieces? or even masks?

[nancylee]

Nancy his pots are fired to cone 9-electric oxidation

I used to fire them for him to cone 10 reduction .

Laguna clay called 1/2 1/2 can take the abuse-they make two kinds I would get the less fine groged one(the one with larger grog). We use the fine porcelain gorged one but it can crack in large slab works.I use it for all my slab work.

 

My friend is very ill right now and I'm going to ask for you just to send him good thoughts-I'm keeping his name private for awhile as he need some space now

he is a hobby potter who has lots of talent.Just enjoy the work its made from slabs (not thrown)and handbuilt.

All those glazes are in Tom Colmans glazes I use book one or two-most are not food safe on the outside

the green one is Ritz green.

Thanks for the info, Mark. And I will send your friend good healing. I do some shamanic reiki, so I will send him good energy later today. 

[nancylee]

Nancy,

don't give up on throwing. As mark said , it took him 8 years. That is about what it Takes. Michael cared said 7 years as an apprentice. I think it took me about that long somewhere in that range. Try throwing slower and drier.

Marcia

OK, I will do. I'm going into my basement right now and throwing for an hour. Slower and drier. Good! 

[nancylee]

Nancy can you take classes somewhere near you where they have a full studio?

 

i feel there's no point in buying an extruder without at least trying it out first. our school has a manual extruder and i have to say its not that easy to use. you  have to put the die and clay properly to get it right. that calls for some careful assessment. if its a manual extruder you also need to have some strength to push the clay through. 

 

pardon me for asking but what exactly do you find hard about handbuildilng? there are so many methods of handbuilding - does not one of them work for you? 

 

do you have to make functional ware? can you not make animals or sculptural pieces? or even masks?

Hi, I have taken lessons from a great teacher for years, and another great teacher recently. It's me. I think I go too fast. 

I find getting the forms to stay together hard in handbuilding. Also, when I texture the slab, then go to put it around a form, it's cracking. I think it's just practice, trial and error. I'm always in a rush, cause I work full time and have a lot of urn orders, so the time to make fun things for me is so limited. And I would love to make masks!! OH NO!! Another shiny object for me to try!! LOL! 

[Min]

"Also, when I texture the slab, then go to put it around a form, it's cracking."
 

Usually this is from 1 of 2 things, either the clay is too dry or not plastic enough. (both can be from the clay being too dry)

 

Also, don't know if you have seen it but the Mitch Lyons method of handbuilding cylinders without a seam might be of use? 

[Marcia Selsor]

 

Nancy,

don't give up on throwing. As mark said , it took him 8 years. That is about what it Takes. Michael cared said 7 years as an apprentice. I think it took me about that long somewhere in that range. Try throwing slower and drier.

Marcia

OK, I will do. I'm going into my basement right now and throwing for an hour. Slower and drier. Good!

 

Nancy,

did you notice any difference? any more control?

Marcia

[Magnolia Mud Research]

Nancy, et.al.,

 

two tips from my experience:

 

1.  Using sheets of craft foam as a working surface has reduced drying and cracking of slab built work.  The foam -- unlike paper, wood, wallboard, sheet rock, or canvas -- has very little drying effect on freshly made slabs. 

2.  Placing a sheet of Saran wrap like plastic both under and over slabs will keep them moist and pliable for quite a while.   Smooth the wrap onto the slab and then peal it off when you need access to the clay for joining or when you are finished and want the piece to dry.  I often wrap cylinders, and thrown bottles with generic Saran wrap before putting them under plastic to keep them moist for longer periods.   I kept leather hard bottle for May till the next March tightly wrapped in saran wrap and then in wrapped in dry-cleaner plastic.   It was still carvable when I took it out. 

 

My point is that managing the moisture content of the clay during hand building can be easier if you can identify the steps that are contributing to the drying and mitigate the drying in those steps.

 

LT

[preeta]

nancy one thing i have found with clay - you have to do some inner work. not just me but other students in my class too. that makes a difference between too heavy and just right.

 

i know what you mean. i suffered the same. i had limited time at school. i didnt have a wheel at home. so my time at school was very precious. my whole body was ready to go the moment i left home. 

 

and clay fought back. clay taught me - all in due time. in my first semester i was experimenting. i threw 20 cups in one setting. but only 4 of them made it. why? because i was hurrying. the surface came out great. every one of them. BUT my handles were off. did not match my cups. which totally ruined the whole effect. boy did i learn my lesson. 

 

next semester i tried bowls. again i hurried. and again they were'nt perfect. 

 

i am trying my level best to slow down next semester, coz hurrying is not doing anything. 

 

i've discovered timing is key. which is what i really enjoy about clay. there is the text book, there are teachers, but there is you too - who has to work it out with the knowledge you have. 

 

i have wasted 1 1/2 years not giving clay the time it demands. i have learnt a lot that is not book/teacher knowledge but knowledge you pick up as you experiment with clay. 

[nancylee]

 

 

Nancy,

don't give up on throwing. As mark said , it took him 8 years. That is about what it Takes. Michael cared said 7 years as an apprentice. I think it took me about that long somewhere in that range. Try throwing slower and drier.

Marcia

OK, I will do. I'm going into my basement right now and throwing for an hour. Slower and drier. Good!

 

Nancy,

did you notice any difference? any more control?

Marcia

 

Hi Marcia,

I threw for quite a few hours. I'm good under 3 pounds. Then I did about 4 to 5 pounds, and I think perhaps I didn't wedge it enough, because when I brought it up, I felt a "corkscrew" in the middle of the height. I tried and tried to get it out, but couldnt'. I then just cut it down with my needle tool. 

Things like this always happen when I throw! It is so frustrating!! 

[nancylee]

nancy one thing i have found with clay - you have to do some inner work. not just me but other students in my class too. that makes a difference between too heavy and just right.

 

i know what you mean. i suffered the same. i had limited time at school. i didnt have a wheel at home. so my time at school was very precious. my whole body was ready to go the moment i left home. 

 

and clay fought back. clay taught me - all in due time. in my first semester i was experimenting. i threw 20 cups in one setting. but only 4 of them made it. why? because i was hurrying. the surface came out great. every one of them. BUT my handles were off. did not match my cups. which totally ruined the whole effect. boy did i learn my lesson. 

 

next semester i tried bowls. again i hurried. and again they were'nt perfect. 

 

i am trying my level best to slow down next semester, coz hurrying is not doing anything. 

 

i've discovered timing is key. which is what i really enjoy about clay. there is the text book, there are teachers, but there is you too - who has to work it out with the knowledge you have. 

 

i have wasted 1 1/2 years not giving clay the time it demands. i have learnt a lot that is not book/teacher knowledge but knowledge you pick up as you experiment with clay. 

Thanks for you throughts. Yes, I am always rushing. That is probably the issue with my throwing. 

[Mark C.]

(Yes, I am always rushing.)

This will not work with throwing until its mastered.

Slow down grasshopper-make one very slowing but well-take whatever time is needed.

[neilestrick]

The biggest problem my students have when moving up to larger amounts of clay is that they don't cone it properly during centering. If you don't bring in the clay at the bottom of the cone enough then that part of the clay does not center up properly, and since it's at the bottom it messes up everything else above it. From a ball of clay to a cone, the diameter at the bottom of the clay should reduce by about half when bringing it up.

 

Also, when bringing it back down, come down slowly and focus on pushing in at the top with the left hand or you'll be chasing a mushroom all the way down and it will overlap when you reach the bottom, making a mess.

[Magnolia Mud Research]

The problem i see students having trouble throwing bigger pots is they under estimate the amount of clay needed to make the size they want and then pull the walls to thin which leads to collapse.

 

When you start with a well made ball of well wedged plastic clay there is no value to spending time making cones up and down except to show off.

 

Center the ball as a big round block and go straight to opening and raising the wall.

 

LT

[neilestrick]

The problem i see students having trouble throwing bigger pots is they under estimate the amount of clay needed to make the size they want and then pull the walls to thin which leads to collapse.

 

When you start with a well made ball of well wedged plastic clay there is no value to spending time making cones up and down except to show off.

 

Center the ball as a big round block and go straight to opening and raising the wall.

 

LT

 

I disagree completely. Coning evens out the clay so you have a smooth, consistent, homogenous ball of clay that is in sync with the rotation of the wheel. I get a lot of students who come from other studios that never learned to cone and struggle with centering.

[Magnolia Mud Research]

I agree that we disagree.  

You have your experience, I have mine.  

Both are valid for our situations.    

centering is important.  coning isn't. 

 

LT   

[Min]

The biggest problem my students have when moving up to larger amounts of clay is that they don't cone it properly during centering. If you don't bring in the clay at the bottom of the cone enough then that part of the clay does not center up properly, and since it's at the bottom it messes up everything else above it. From a ball of clay to a cone, the diameter at the bottom of the clay should reduce by about half when bringing it up.

 

Also, when bringing it back down, come down slowly and focus on pushing in at the top with the left hand or you'll be chasing a mushroom all the way down and it will overlap when you reach the bottom, making a mess.

 

 

The problem i see students having trouble throwing bigger pots is they under estimate the amount of clay needed to make the size they want and then pull the walls to thin which leads to collapse.

 

When you start with a well made ball of well wedged plastic clay there is no value to spending time making cones up and down except to show off.

 

Center the ball as a big round block and go straight to opening and raising the wall.

 

LT

 

Neil is one of the most generous and gracious people on these forums. With all due respect I really don't think he is suggesting coning to show off.

[Magnolia Mud Research]

Min, I was not trying to imply he was, and I apologize for the 'showing off' phrase. 

 

My experience has been that centering is important and if the clay is well wedged and formed into a ball, coning is not a necessary step in centering.

 

Again my experience is that excessive coning by beginners leads to over moist clay which leads to even more problems. 

 

LT

[1515art]

Min, I was not trying to imply he was, and I apologize for the 'showing off' phrase. 

 

My experience has been that centering is important and if the clay is well wedged and formed into a ball, coning is not a necessary step in centering.

 

Again my experience is that excessive coning by beginners leads to over moist clay which leads to even more problems. 

 

LT

Let me start by saying I think all the work on here is amazing and there are so many folks on this forum that know so much more than me about many subjects discussed here on these pages, this one topic I feel from my experience to agree with LT.

 

LT, I have to agree with you about the conning of clay while centering, it has its place...wheel wedging, but not needed except to get the clay properly mixed for working with on the wheel, although many find conning gets them in a grove to throw(warmed up). I may bring the clay up and down once or several times depending on the amount of clay I'm working with or other factors (slightly loose bat, distractions...) but once the clay is centered no mater how many times I take it up and down as long as I wedge properly it throws the same taking into account other factors outside of the obvious.

 

My first lesson throwing on the wheel was in 1969 and I was taught to "cone the clay 3 times up and down before centering" that worked well, everyone did the same...it was a rule set in stone I'd guess long before I ever got any clay under my fingernails as a kid. I too followed that rule, but that didn't mean centering was a snap...not by any means and without perfect centering you fight little issues till the end when throwing. The difference came for me when I understood the importance in several things, position, timing and feel (finding the wave). Centering; You need to be in as solid a position as possible, if the clay can push you around even a little centering will be frustrating, timing, throwning requires force and sometimes you need to time when to apply that force in a short steady burst and feel, when you take control of the clay it responds in a way that feels like you just got up on water skis, only your hands are the ones riding the wave...not fighting it like the boat drags you through the water.

 

My personal opinion is whatever teacher dreamed up the 3 time rule was geanus, perfect way to get through to a student the need for a lot of things teaching something very difficult to learn, somehow though imo it was chiseled in stone and became one of those things.

 

Another thing about centering is a lot of beginners don't understand using the wheel as a multiplier of force, to center easily one needs to direct the force (pressure from your hands) not just into the clay sideways, but down into the wheel head as well at a 45% angle down and in starting at the top taking control of only as much surface area as you can while remaining steady, then working down while staying in control...riding the wave.

Clark

[Magnolia Mud Research]

Clark,

 

I too was given the demonstration of coning just before my class was allowed to go to the wheel and try to make simple cylinders.  While the instructor was talking, he also was coning the clay up and down, more than three times.  It one of his ways of keeping our attention focused on the demonstration and what he was explaining.  Looking back, it was a good use performance art.  I also use coning when I demonstrate centering, for the same reason.

 

When the class was released to work on the wheels, I coned and made a mess of the several balls of clay before I realized, that centering was basically about getting the clay stuck to the bat, and into a straight sided cylinder, the size of a thick hockey puck.  So, I placed my next ball of clay on the bat, pounded it solidly against the bat, turned on the wheel, and took the knife from my pottery kit, and held it in position and trimmed the hunk of clay round. Then I proceeded as instructed to open and when on throw a cylinder that was almost straight up but a little wider at the top than the bottom.  The instructor looked over, laughing with a thumbs-up sign and said, "now make a hundred of 'em."
 
Later on I watched some online videos of early to mid 20th century production potters throw large churns.  Start to finish was  less than five minutes.  He took an extruded log of soft clay , cut it to a precise length, dropped the log vertically onto a wheel and proceeded to  center, open, and pull the clay up all at the same time.  It seemed to be just a single move by the thrower. 
 
The point is to get the clay centered and ready for opening.  If coning works for you, then cone.  The finished pot is what matters, not the details of how it was made. 
 
LT

[1515art]

I got to throw a little with the workers in the factory China, they were making pieces up to 20 feet tall in thrown 3 foot sections...no one taught them to cone, course China being upside down and gravity... a few have tried hanging a wheel upside down and Michal Frimkess work seemed to defy gravity (Frimkess threw very dry no water).

[nancylee]

Hi again! So I'm up to the spout! I imagine I need to handbuild the spout, as how could such a tall and narrow spout be thrown? And I dont have an extruder die that puts out a narrow and hollow tube. Thanks!

[JohnnyK]

Hi again! So I'm up to the spout! I imagine I need to handbuild the spout, as how could such a tall and narrow spout be thrown? And I dont have an extruder die that puts out a narrow and hollow tube. Thanks!

You might try this, Nancy...

Get a dowel stick or other rod the diameter of the inside of your spout and wrap a couple of times with newspaper. DON"T tape the newspaper to the rod, but do tape the outside to itself just to hold it together. You should be able to slide the paper a little on the rod. Roll out a slab to the thickness and length of the spout, then wrap the clay around the dowel, joining it to make the tube that will become the spout. Practice a little so you can get the spout looking like you want. After the clay is a soft leather hard and you can handle it without breaking it, pull the rod through the tube and out. The paper will stay inside the clay tube you have made, but you don't have to worry about that now. When the clay dries, you will be able to pull the paper out. What doesn't come out will burn off in the firing.

I used this method to make stems for some yard-art mushrooms and it worked well.

​The left over spouts, if you have any, you can dry and fire and make wind chimes with them.  

 

An alternative to this method would be to go to an auto supply store and buy an oil funnel which is long and tapered and use it to wrap your slabs around.

JohnnyK

[Min]

Stan Irvin has a couple videos where he handbuilds spouts. In

he shows pulling a spout on a tapered  spout maker. Should work over a plastic funnel like Johnny K suggested when wrapped in paper, I've not tried on a plastic funnel but does work on wood spout makers. If you try it be prepared to muck up a few before you get a good one, it's a bit tricky to get them a good thickness. (Irvin talks about dusting the clay and wood with feldspar or talc in place of cornstarch, I wouldn't use the first two though) Using slabs with templates in

.