glazenerd Posted January 10, 2017 Report Share Posted January 10, 2017 Eyes Dirt intently. Oh really? Never had customer service issues, and never paid those prices for elements or controllers. Broken TC, they sent me a new one: controller issue: they sent me a new one--FREE! They just do not like you.... LOL Nerd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Longer Member Posted January 10, 2017 Report Share Posted January 10, 2017 They just do not like you.... LOL Nerd I aint the only one who's had poor service so it's not me. Glad to see they you aren't having many problems and you get free stuff (and I do mean that) but from my personal and professional experience that is the exception and not the rule. Lemme know when you start buyin' elements for $45 each and we'll talk. Even if you get a half price "deal" for a T/B element that's still more than regular street price for a "comparable" Skutt element. Free stuff is great but I'm so disgusted with Orton's business ethics I refuse to use their products as a replacement even if they gave it to me; seriously. For the sake of argument, let's say "they don't like me". It's not good for business to treat someone badly who not only uses their products to make a living but also is constantly being asked to repair and/or recommend equipment to others. Not only is that unprofessional, it's just not smart. When you buy equipment,you are also buying into a service network (or not) of a distributor and manufacturer. Skutt has always gone above and beyond even when not asked. Paragon has demonstrated to me countless times to not even give customer service even on the most basic level...even when they didn't know it was me.. When I buy an L&L it will be from Neil and that is for good reason (on may different levels.); both are proven known quantities. From an engineering standpoint, I really wanted to like Paragon but can't based on what I've seen from actual field use. I really wanted to hate Skutt for the same reason but actual use has shown me otherwise. Start firing high volumes of beginner pieces that blow up and a PROMISE you your opinion of Paragon will change....that is if if manages to get to temp regularly... If Paragon just had an attitude problem but made a decent product that worked as expected I would say that. My personal and professional experience has proven time and time again to be otherwise. Feelings are feeling but a logic dictates "you" can't argue results. I've seen too many "problem child" Paragons to feel ok about recommending them. I'd rather not service them either but I'd hate to leave someone unsupported just because they bought something that is unreliable. I am glad to see you are having consistent, relatively trouble free results as I believe what you are doing is important. My luck and others hasn't been so good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glazenerd Posted January 10, 2017 Report Share Posted January 10, 2017 I only use APM elements, will let you know when I get around to replacing a set. I have replaced them on my small test kiln; at cone 6- nearly 400 firings per set, and over 1200 firings total.---still going. Every potter is rather loyal to the kiln of their choice. My supplier has 2 full time kiln techs, but he also does almost every college and school around the St. Louis area. I have been in his kiln repair room many times. If I went only by perception: then Skutt would be on the bottom of the list. There are boxes and boxes of broken Skutt parts, a few L&L and only one Paragon. Come to think of it, I have not seen any Cone Art boxes. He stocks Skutt parts, but nothing else. Is that saying Skutt breaks down more than others? that is if if manages to get to temp regularly.. Cannot address this either, never had the problem. Nerd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Longer Member Posted January 10, 2017 Report Share Posted January 10, 2017 I only use APM elements, will let you know when I get around to replacing a set. I have replaced them on my small test kiln; at cone 6- nearly 400 firings per set, and over 1200 firings total.---still going. Every potter is rather loyal to the kiln of their choice. My supplier has 2 full time kiln techs, but he also does almost every college and school around the St. Louis area. I have been in his kiln repair room many times. If I went only by perception: then Skutt would be on the bottom of the list. There are boxes and boxes of broken Skutt parts, a few L&L and only one Paragon. Come to think of it, I have not seen any Cone Art boxes. He stocks Skutt parts, but nothing else. Is that saying Skutt breaks down more than others? that is if if manages to get to temp regularly.. Cannot address this either, never had the problem. Nerd Skutts do have one weakness that I do not like at all but is easily repaired. (Ironically, it's the one area of a Paragon I actually like.) I don't like pinning in elements either but I've found Skutt bricks do take a hit much better from ware explosions so I can live with the pins. We started with Paragon but now own more Skutts and have way more money tied up in Paragon products just by default. Like I said before, I REALLY wanted to like them but now I just can't. I can't imagine why your distributor would keep broken stuff (unless it's for warranty purposes?). Perhaps that implies there are more Skutts in service than Paragons? We have two Skutts and one paragon in regular service for our our studio and I go through way more Paragon parts and have more trouble with that one than the other two combined. If I were offered either kiln for free but could only choose one, I'd pick the Skutt based soley off of the fact they have given me much less grief performance-wise. I HATE stuff that doesn't work right regardless of how I feel about who it comes from. If I didn't need Paragons customer service, then their ability to deliver it wouldn't matter. Perhaps you haven't experienced uneven temps due to your regular "non typical" load of test tiles but we've had problems with ours empty. One thing is for certain, if you can buy APM elements for less than the cost of standard elements; that would stand to reason that has more to do about how they feel about you rather than how they feel about the rest of us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilestrick Posted January 10, 2017 Report Share Posted January 10, 2017 Neil, I've never seen the Orton board listed (Sentry 2.0) on their site, is that something only available over the phone? I'm surprised Orton would allow that. http://www.bartinst.com/kilns/2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Longer Member Posted January 10, 2017 Report Share Posted January 10, 2017 Neil, I've never seen the Orton board listed (Sentry 2.0) on their site, is that something only available over the phone? I'm surprised Orton would allow that. http://www.bartinst.com/kilns/2 Thanks Neil. It appears to be very similar but not a plug-and-play direct replacement. The Sentry uses a two plug harness with corresponding PCB connectors on the back whereas this one appears to use standard .250 male/female blades (I don't remember the number of pins of either offhand but combined total is greater than the RTC). I figured there may be a required proprietary difference b/w this one and the Sentry; lack of PCB connectors must be it. I glanced over the instructions but didn't see anything mentioned about being able to toggle b/w K and S type like the Sentry. The specs say K rated but nothing about S but the user manual mentions removal of a jumper in the diagram for K. Do you know if removal of the jumper is all that is required or if it is capable of S type? I looked in the tech manual but didn't see anything in the hidden menu to toggle b/w the two nor in the user manual (unless I missed it which is quite possible). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark C. Posted January 10, 2017 Report Share Posted January 10, 2017 I cannot speak to Paragon quality but my 3 skutt kilns have all had issues from lack of quality parts-ether poor stainless jackets that rusted or just steel screws instead of stainless or pinned elements or complete change over of kiln connectors and discontinuing old style.I think skutt plays catch up and works on the low end thats why they are cheaper and there are so many of their kilns out there-like the VWs in the 60's-cheap but not better. Yes I can always work on them and I do but it gets old fast Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilestrick Posted January 10, 2017 Report Share Posted January 10, 2017 Neil, I've never seen the Orton board listed (Sentry 2.0) on their site, is that something only available over the phone? I'm surprised Orton would allow that. http://www.bartinst.com/kilns/2 Thanks Neil. It appears to be very similar but not a plug-and-play direct replacement. The Sentry uses a two plug harness with corresponding PCB connectors on the back whereas this one appears to use standard .250 male/female blades (I don't remember the number of pins of either offhand but combined total is greater than the RTC). I figured there may be a required proprietary difference b/w this one and the Sentry; lack of PCB connectors must be it. I glanced over the instructions but didn't see anything mentioned about being able to toggle b/w K and S type like the Sentry. The specs say K rated but nothing about S but the user manual mentions removal of a jumper in the diagram for K. Do you know if removal of the jumper is all that is required or if it is capable of S type? I looked in the tech manual but didn't see anything in the hidden menu to toggle b/w the two nor in the user manual (unless I missed it which is quite possible). It is a direct swap. I just put one on a Paragon last week. It'a available with .250 terminals or the two harness configuration that Paragon and Orton uses. Personally I like the terminals better- much easier to see what's what. I believe it's available for K or S- pretty sure they asked me when I ordered. They'll set it at the factory, but I'm not sure if it's just a jumper or what to change it. EDIT: Go HERE, page 21 shows the jumper for Type K/S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Longer Member Posted January 10, 2017 Report Share Posted January 10, 2017 It is a direct swap. I just put one on a Paragon last week. It'a available with .250 terminals or the two harness configuration that Paragon and Orton uses. I believe it's available for K or S- pretty sure they asked me when I ordered. They'll set it at the factory, but I'm not sure if it's just a jumper or what to change it. EDIT: Go HERE, page 21 shows the jumper for Type K/S Good to know it's available both ways. Page 21 is what I was referring to earlier. You can set the Sentry b/w the two in the menu options without any jumper involvement but apparently not this one. They had memory corruption problems with the first version of this board (the Sentry 2.0, so I've been told) and the second seems a little sketchy too. The memory defect was supposedly corrected but I haven't been convinced of that yet. I'm with ya on the terminals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Longer Member Posted January 10, 2017 Report Share Posted January 10, 2017 I cannot speak to Paragon quality but my 3 skutt kilns have all had issues from lack of quality parts-ether poor stainless jackets that rusted or just steel screws instead of stainless or pinned elements or complete change over of kiln connectors and discontinuing old style.I think skutt plays catch up and works on the low end thats why they are cheaper and there are so many of their kilns out there-like the VWs in the 60's-cheap but not better. Yes I can always work on them and I do but it gets old fast I've seen the same corrosion problems with Paragons.Funny you mention the air cooled VWs. I almost used them as a comparison as the abundance of used parts based on shear production numbers and that no longer being the case doesn't mean they don't require repairs. There were several engineer firsts on those things; that car changed the entire planet for a reason. Not better than what? Until then there wasn't anything else to compare it to. So yes, Skutts are a lot like Volkswagens, inexpensive to produce, provide results and are everywhere. If Skutt is a Volkswagen, then a Paragon is a Corvair... "Unsafe At Any Firing Speed" ... That's just a joke but I have seen at least one failure that could have severely injured someone. No idea if that was caused by a previous repair attempt or a failure so I have no definitive data to suggest they are in fact dangerous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilestrick Posted January 10, 2017 Report Share Posted January 10, 2017 My first car was a 1973 Super Beetle, bought in 1986. When I bought it the engine was only being held in by 2 bolts instead of the normal 4. I loved, loved, loved that car, but hated it just as much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilestrick Posted January 10, 2017 Report Share Posted January 10, 2017 All kilns corrode to some degree, in certain places. Mostly it's just a cosmetic issue. I've only ever replaced one body band that rusted all the way through. Usually the bricks give out before the metal. There's no perfect kiln, although some are closer to others. If you got everything you wanted in a kiln it would cost twice as much. There's a very small market for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glazenerd Posted January 10, 2017 Report Share Posted January 10, 2017 One thing is for certain, if you can buy APM elements for less than the cost of standard elements; that would stand to reason that has more to do about how they feel about you rather than how they feel about the rest of us. See !!!! -- I told ya !!! Actually I pay the upgrade charge when I order a kiln; although not the amount shown on price list. I talked to Frank Tucker for awhile at NCECA back in March; he takes his kilns very seriously. Gauge of stainless steel, types of stainless screws, mig welding, brick treatments: could tell he had a passion to build the best kiln possible. He was the one that told me about the new Genesis controller before it was publicly announced. Said they had been testing it for awhile with good results. My first car was a 68 Pontiac Executive.. what a boat!! Sold the year after I graduated and bought a 72 Firebird. Found the Executive to be more user friendly: would hold 5 of my buddies and a keg of beer on ice. When you spent all day milking, plowing, and bucking bales: refreshments are mandatory. Life changes, last brewsky I had was in Oct. 1978. Nerd My first kiln purchase back in 2008 was the Super Dragon- still on the first set of elements, no repairs other than the broken TC caused during shipping. 2nd was the little Caldera- 1200+ firings - 3rd set of APM's- they did send me a free set of Kanthnals for that one. 3rd kiln was the TNF6B full stainless jacket all around- still purrs like a kitten. and the fourth was the Xpress 1613-3. 1.75CF with 6400 watts of power: the thing is an absolute tank. The are using ITC brick coating now; that does help. I have zero complaints.... Nerd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Longer Member Posted January 11, 2017 Report Share Posted January 11, 2017 One thing is for certain, if you can buy APM elements for less than the cost of standard elements; that would stand to reason that has more to do about how they feel about you rather than how they feel about the rest of us. See !!!! -- I told ya !!! Actually I pay the upgrade charge when I order a kiln; although not the amount shown on price list. I'm not following your train of thought at all. We'll just leave it at that and move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.