Should You Think Production Process If You're Not A Production Potter?

[Stephen]

This is not a question but rather just something I though worthy of debate.

 

In a recent thread a student and I kind of gave opposite advice to a person learning to throw and it peaked my interest. The student was recommending leaving an abundance of clay and trimming to form and I was recommending throwing to form and trimming as a finishing process only. I don't in the least think the student is wrong, far from it. That's one of the wonderful things about pottery, we can all approach our work the way we want to and the end result is what counts, you as the potter get to make the decisions on how you get there.

 

When I started throwing I left to much clay routinely and trimmed to form. Time didn't matter so spending as much or more time trimming a piece was just fine. At that point in time since throwing was still somewhat frustrating and intense, trimming was also my most enjoyable time spent making a piece. It felt so liberating to be able to simply correct weight and surface issues with my trimming tools.

 

It caused me problems, big problems, when I made the shift to doing this to make my living. Suddenly spending 10 minutes throwing a mug and twice that time cleaning it up with my trimming tools became a serious problem. One of the first stark realities in this business is that you can't sell what you don't have. You're not going to have a $3000 show if you show up with $2000 worth of pots :-)

 

Easy fix right? Wrong. I had to make tons of changes in how I throw and after doing it the other way for so long that took a lot of effort. I had to really tear my whole process down and re-learn movements that now had been reduced to muscle memory. My mental check off for things to pay attention to on the wheel expanded and changed. 

 

I do think I make better and more consistent pots now than when I relied on trimming too much but seriously I'm not putting down the other approach just curious how others approach this. Obviously many people have no serious intention of ever selling in volume so trimming to form if that's how they like to do it works fine. Others sell such high-end work that time is not as much of a consideration and they are going to adopt a method to what works best for them.

 

I guess my whole point is that many part time potters have aspirations of doing this full time at some point in their life and if that's the case I think this debate might help them make decisions now that might help them later so they can plan their work and production schedules differently when they are starting out so as to be realistic about how many pots they can make in a day of studio work and how they are going to accumulate enough in inventory for well stocked shows and keep it stocked as they sell. As a dream its real easy to fill in the blanks with 'it will work out' thoughts but when faced with making X amount of pots today that includes trimming what you already threw, throwing more, glazing, loading kilns and a gazillion little details to running a pottery business ya really have to accurately plan your approach. 

[Guest]

A production potter learns how to throw and trim to reduce the time it takes to finish an item to get it to market all the quicker. There is nothing wrong with learning those skills as a beginner. In fact I think its beneficial so as not to unlearn old habits.

 

During the 6 week class we took at the local HS, the instructor wanted us to leave a mass of clay on the bottom to trim later on in the process. He reminded me many times not to make the base to small to in order support the clay on top. Since the guy has taught ceramics for 50 years I accepted his word.

 

I'm not worried about ruining a piece in order to learn, in fact I think It's a good think to do.  About two weeks ago I decided to try and cut the foot then finish shaping the pot with a rib before I wired it off the bat. As most of you already know, it works. I think my shapes look a heck of a lot better.

 

So the answer to your question is yes a part-timer can benefit form learning the skills form a production potter.

[Guest JBaymore]

I think the key point in this discussion is WHY a person is trimming a form.

 

If the trimming is part of an intentful CHOICE... that is one thing.  If the trimming is being done because there IS no other choice....... then the trimming is a "band-aid" being put on the "severed artery" of a lack of throwing skills.  THAT is a whole different animal.

 

All of the faculty at my college, including myself, address the idea of trimming as an approach to refining and completing the form for aesthetic (and possibly also functional) reasons........ NOT for reducing the weight or decreasing the wall thickness.

 

There is a saying that, "When all you have is a hammer, the world looks like a nail".  When you can't move clay up into the air well on the potter's wheel, all you can see is trimming tools. 

 

To persist in using trimming to solve this issue is to simply avoid the REAL issue.  It is the easy way out.

 

Early on in a potter's development, such an approach puts the object before the process; product before skill.  As a student of clay.... which hopefully continues for a lifetime...... acquisition of 'high touch' would hopefully be an important goal.

 

As to "right " and "wrong" on this............ since no one is going to DIE based upon how one gets to the end piece of claywork.... there is no essential and universal measuring stick.  However, there are skillful and efficient ways to get things done....usually referred to as aspects of "craftsmanship" (sorry about the gender specific nature of that word).  If high levels of "craftsmanship" are used as a measuring stick........ then HAVING to trim to reduce the weight caused by an excessively thick cross section is "wrong".

 

A finished object stands on its own.  In that context, no one cares HOW it came to be ............ including industrial forming processes.  It just "is".  We see and interact with it and form a judgment about it.  We can assess function.  We can assess aesthetics of design. 

 

Where does process figure into this equation?   Does it at all?

 

This opens up a whole different area of serious enquiry.   Is a poorly executed piece of hand-crafted pottery somehow "better", or have more intrinsic value, than a well executed industrially produced piece of pottery?

 

Now that I've opened THAT can o' worms......... I'll run and hide in a corner somewhere  .

 

best,

 

.........................john

[Pres]

I taught for several years at a HS in Central PA. My intention with the students was to learn to throw, and understand what throwing well meant. I tried to demonstrate through my own activity an amount of frugality of motion and steps in pursuing a form. I put forth the premise that trimming did not make up for poor throwing, but that some forms needed more trimming than just an edge and bottom shaping. These include bowls and cantilevered forms. Even then, I emphasized the stresses put on the form by the extremes in cantilevering and in trimming without understanding what would happen in the kiln and the firing process.

 

I believe that trimming to form has its place, but as John and others will insist, poor habits are poor habits, crutches are crutches, and sometimes in order to run you have to learn to crawl and to walk in order to develop the skills to run.

 

 

best,

Pres

[Chilly]

For many reasons, I never mastered throwing, and have now given up trying (injury/operation......)

 

What I did find out is that yes, you can trim to shape to compensate for poor throwing skills, but if you can't open up and pull high enough, you can't make anything big enough to bother with.  I tried, but trimming on the inside is impossible.

[Mark C.]

It best to learn to throw better-pull a cylinder and finish as much as you can without trimming. 

You also need to learn trimming as a skill just like joining clay in hand building.

Much of my work is no trimmers or very little trimmers.The exception is bowls which need feet.

[mugmkr]

My experience: Over time, clay will teach you what a good form is as you simultaneously uncover your unique expression in the medium. As I did not have the experience of learning to throw from a production potter, I've learned a lot of what I know about pottery the hard way, by trial and error...lots of error . I most definitely "trimmmed to form" for years when clay was but a serious hobby. But...by making hundreds and thousands of the same form over time, trust me, you will figure out the most economical way to make a great pot with the minimum amount of clay and time necessary. Looking back, I feel most fortunate to have had the "formal yet informal" introduction to clay that I had at the Tuesday night community clay class at Southern Oregon State College in the late eighties/early nineties. Because the class was so informal and loose I was not starting by trying to copy anyone's style or technique. I had to figure a lot of it out on my own.

Also, I think the pathway to becoming a full time potter happens for most folk who start as a hobbyist in steps - first, after some time and lots of practice, you make some pots that you think are nice enough to give friends and family as gifts, you get positive feedback, then you apply to galleries and get accepted, you get a booth at the farmers market and select art and craft shows, you set up a website, you are getting sales, and as it goes well you start dreaming about doing this full time. As this is happening you are throwing, throwing, throwing, and your pots are getting better and better - not only more refined, but they reflect you and your style, your unique "voice" expressed in clay.

At some point you realize you might have a shot at making a living doing this, and by this time most likely you have worked out your technique which of course continues to refine as you go. So to the point raised by Stephen to start this thread, yep, you gotta learn how to work with clay if you want to make a living from clay...and if you stick with it long enough, you will.

Cheers, Owen in Central Oregon where the rain is washing away our snow and exposing once again the lawn I didn't rake in the fall

[Chris Campbell]

As a facet of business life you have to refine ... every time you touch a piece it costs time and a potters time is $$$

 

I did production level hand building for many years and every year I had to break the work down to the fewest steps I needed to get a finished piece. That does not always mean more at one time since you also have to balance drying times at each stage. So every year I got better at limiting the times I needed to touch the pieces and it served me well as all the learning overflows. I really did not realize how much I was learning about the properties of clay, glaze and firing at the same time as I was trying to push through quantity.

 

This knowledge leads to an ease with clay that makes all your work better. I did not have any bad habits to unlearn when I began to work bigger and less production like.

 

Recently I went back to throwing for some experiments I wanted to do and was that ever an eye opener! I had lost the skills of this process so my bottoms were fat and I was wasting so much time trying to fix bad throwing. Because the bottoms were thick the drying of the whole vessel was off ... bottoms wet, tops drying. It would be 100% easier to just have a well thrown, even walled piece. I want to proceed with my experiments but my skills are still poor and I don't look forward to it.

 

So I guess my answer is YES ... learn to throw with economy of motion and just the right amount of clay and you will never regret it.

[nancylee]

As a facet of business life you have to refine ... every time you touch a piece it costs time and a potters time is $$$

 

I did production level hand building for many years and every year I had to break the work down to the fewest steps I needed to get a finished piece. That does not always mean more at one time since you also have to balance drying times at each stage. So every year I got better at limiting the times I needed to touch the pieces and it served me well as all the learning overflows. I really did not realize how much I was learning about the properties of clay, glaze and firing at the same time as I was trying to push through quantity.

 

This knowledge leads to an ease with clay that makes all your work better. I did not have any bad habits to unlearn when I began to work bigger and less production like.

 

Recently I went back to throwing for some experiments I wanted to do and was that ever an eye opener! I had lost the skills of this process so my bottoms were fat and I was wasting so much time trying to fix bad throwing. Because the bottoms were thick the drying of the whole vessel was off ... bottoms wet, tops drying. It would be 100% easier to just have a well thrown, even walled piece. I want to proceed with my experiments but my skills are still poor and I don't look forward to it.

 

So I guess my answer is YES ... learn to throw with economy of motion and just the right amount of clay and you will never regret it.

Wow!! Production level hand building seems like an oxymoron!! I am just starting to hand build things, and it takes so much time, and most things are so messed up!! LOL!! I do like it though. 

I don't throw big, I just can't get it, I don't know why, but when I make smaller urns and stuff I try to take as much off before I wire it - I don't trim if I don't have to. I find centering to trim takes so much time, that even though I like to trim, if I take the excess off the bottom sides and throw with a shallower bottom, I don't have to spend 10 minutes trying to center the darn thing to trim. 

But that's because after 6 years at this, I still suck at most of it.  

Nancy

[Callie Beller Diesel]

My personal bias is towards doing it right the first time. Re-learning skills is inefficient, and can be frustrating in itself.

That said, from a neurology standpoint, while delayed gratification of process over product brings more long term satisfaction, it can be very hard to get past the instant gratification of product over process.

 

I worked briefly at a private studio that gave lessons to novices, and they were major proponents of the "product" method of teaching. This meant leaving a massively thick bottom on everything, and trimming a week later. I was told very specifically to not overtax people by teaching them how to throw a proper cylinder, because it was too hard, and the students here were just looking to relax. They wanted their students to feel like they could go home with something that they managed to finish, so they'd be happy with the class and sign up for more of them. I find the problem with this line of thinking is that there's only so many bad ashtray/bowls one needs or can give away, and then the students get bored and move on to the next "craft." Probably something involving a pre-purchased kit. And just so we're all clear, there is a place in the world for kits. Relaxing is important to do sometimes.

 

But if you want the ongoing, long-term satisfaction that makes you keep coming back, you need to feel like you are still achieving things and overcoming new challenges, and learning new skills. This place would get a lot of students that would take a class or 3 and not return, because there was nothing there to inspire them to move past those awkward few pots we all struggled to get off the wheel at the start. This place is not operating any more.

 

I find clay to be like playing a musical instrument: you have to learn the technical stuff and practice, and you need to build the muscle memory. There are short cuts, but they don't usually lead where you want to wind up.

[Rex Johnson]

Maybe not on topic but...I've done production pottery in the past for small and large outfits.

That urgent pace still lays in my conscience as being something necessary and a attaining pride in my own efficiency.

Now I am trying to slow everything down and unlearn the rushabbout mindset and enjoy the slower process itself.

 

I had a young learner say in a respectful way that I was a production potter.

...au contraire Grasshopper!

I consider myself if anything a studio potter, no more no less.

[preeta]

Hi Stephen 

 

all of this has been in my thoughts so much these last few nights as i recover from a bad cold and read hewitt sweezy's the potter's eye.

 

what kind of a potter do i want to be? what kinds of pots do i want to make? after having spent a very intense year and a half in clay i am figuring out 'my' pots.  having spent a year of that on the wheel i still have miles to go. lets just take the 'reality' of life out of the equation and just figure out what kinds of pots i'd really like to make. am i old fashioned? would my pots sell? am i living in the right area for my kinda pots to sell. am i daft in pushing away the very things that would make the process more efficient. 

 

i've had to prioritize my family and my needs. should i really have two part time jobs - one that brings home the bacon and the other as a potter. 

 

or should i just forget about 'my' pots. since i am not in the right place (in academia with a bunch of grand recidencies and apprenticeships under my belt) as a future production potter i wont have the freedom to touch my pots as much as i would like to. 

 

i recently attended a workshop from a couple of artists from the bray. it really changed my outlook on clay. i was rushing through trying to throw the best pot i could without trimming. i mean no matter what i really want to get good at the wheel. when i saw them alter the form through trimming (hand trimming too, not at the wheel) it really changed me. it changed how my pots looked. i was no longer in a frenzy trying to throw faster and faster. 

 

i have yet to achieve the efficiency i'd like to have - 12 inches with 3 pounds in 3 pulls. BUT i've gotten even walled mostly down. the surface i wanted to achieve 1 1/2 ago is exactly the kind i run from today. 

 

all i know in future i want to make pots. i want to put in all my waking time in making pots. i've waited for over 50 years to get here. i am not giving that up for anything. even if it means i may not get to make the pots i want to make that often. 

 

so as of now i am ignoring the process and just figuring out the kind of pots i want to make. in the process i can see i am getting better and better at the wheel. 

[Guest JBaymore]

 

so as of now i am ignoring the process and just figuring out the kind of pots i want to make.

 

Hummmmmm........ working through and with process helps you find what those pieces are.  Learning to have flows of multiple pieces in process at the same time, allows you to work thru ideas that develop FROM the work AS you work.  Simply sitting and thinking about it leads basically nowhere.  Biggest mistake we see in undergrads.

 

Hands in clay.

 

best,

 

.....................john

[preeta]

 

 

so as of now i am ignoring the process and just figuring out the kind of pots i want to make.

 

Hummmmmm........ working through and with process helps you find what those pieces are.  Learning to have flows of multiple pieces in process at the same time, allows you to work thru ideas that develop FROM the work AS you work.  Simply sitting and thinking about it leads basically nowhere.  Biggest mistake we see in undergrads.

 

Hands in clay.

 

best,

 

.....................john

 

its all thinking right now john. and planning. till school starts and i have access to a wheel again. have all my projects lined up already. in the meantime at home handbuilding and working on handles. 

 

research and thinking is a big part of my process though. as important as hands in clay. 

[What?]

I trim feet on many items for one reason. I like the look of a glazed bottom. It looks very finished to me. In the beginning it was to improve the form from my inexperience. The weight of a piece is not the issue at hand it is the balance of the piece. But you can only make so many door stops and boat anchors.