cabako Posted August 18, 2016 Report Share Posted August 18, 2016 Hi all, I just happened to have a roll of 2" 8lb density, 2300 F rated ceramic wool laying around in the garage (who doesn't right?) so I decided to make an 8 cubic ft kiln. I have cut 2x2' panels and now in the process of securing them to an expanded metal frame. I have 18 gauge stainless steel wire. My question is, could I thread the wire through the fiber and loop it back to tie it to the frame rather than using ceramic buttons to hold the fiber in place? Or would the wire soften or melt because its not directly shielded in some manner? I have read that people are using Nichrome wire and ceramic buttons for this but didn't have any on hand. Any input appreciated! Thanks, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick White Posted August 18, 2016 Report Share Posted August 18, 2016 The SS wire will likely melt or be weakened by the heat. And even with nichrome wire, it will cut through the fiber unless you put a button on the inside to spread the pressure. And such a button will need to be ceramic to withstand the heat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcia Selsor Posted August 18, 2016 Report Share Posted August 18, 2016 I use kanthal wire sold by the foot at Archie bray Clay Business in Helena Montana.I thread the button and shove the ends through the expanded metal or whatever I am using for that kiln. I used sodium silicate to adhere fiber to flashing for my small raku test kiln. I use buttons made of raku clay that I bisque. http://community.ceramicartsdaily.org/gallery/image/6940-buttonswires/ I have a roll of 2" 8# fiber in my kiln shed calling my name...really.I can send a photo. Marcia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cabako Posted August 18, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2016 But how does one make/obtain ceramic buttons without first having a kiln? What came first the kiln or the button??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark C. Posted August 18, 2016 Report Share Posted August 18, 2016 I think I have at least 4 boxes of fiber laying around.Maybe 6? so yes everyone has a few boxes. as far as stainless wire it will melt as noted in above posts you need the right wire-meaning you need to buy it and use buttons-(you can make them or buy them) stainless wire will melt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cabako Posted August 18, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2016 wait a tick, the buttons only have to be greenware if Im careful right? then i can just fire them in place they dont HAVE to be pre fired before use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark C. Posted August 18, 2016 Report Share Posted August 18, 2016 No they will have some stress on them-to much for greenware. at the least the buttons have a back hole in them or a stem with hole depending on what is your final temp? The closer the hole to the hot face the sooner they fail at high temp rake temps will not matter. You never said what temp you will fire this kiln to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cabako Posted August 18, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2016 Hopefully cone 6...if possible. Not sure if it could reach that temp with a single propane burner. I have put heat shield flashing on the outside of the panels and have high temp brick base. Might still be too much heat loss? Eventually I'd like to fire using biodiesel. Last kiln was electric, haven't fired or thrown in years...Be gentle... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterH Posted August 18, 2016 Report Share Posted August 18, 2016 I'm not familiar with US suppliers, but at least one supplies ceramic buttons (at a cost). http://www.axner.com/ceramic-fiber-buttons.aspx I hadn’t realised that two-hole buttons had drawbacks, which might be significant if your'e trying to fire as high as you can. http://community.ceramicartsdaily.org/topic/14941-ceramic-buttons-necessary-for-fiber-kiln/ Steve Mills on thu 8 aug 02We use a 2 inch biscuit (the eating kind) cutter, lute a piece of clayto the back of the resulting disc, and bore a single hole through that,in effect a ceramic *blind* button. The *2 holes through the face*variety can create a heat path to the outside via the holding wires, theblind variety can't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcia Selsor Posted August 18, 2016 Report Share Posted August 18, 2016 They should be bisque. See if there is a kind potter in your area who would do this for you I have been using the handmade buttons for decades. The 2 hole buttons tend to crack in half. The blind hole button as Steve suggested last much longer. As for going to Cone 6, you may want to double up on the insulation. I can touch the outside surface of my raku kiln at 1900, but I am not sure what it would do at 2260. Check the thermal quality of the fiber. Usually it is backed up by brick in commercial kilns.For such a small kiln, you might try mixing a refractory castable for an outer shell.. Marcia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnolia Mud Research Posted August 18, 2016 Report Share Posted August 18, 2016 Hopefully cone 6...if possible. Not sure if it could reach that temp with a single propane burner. I have put heat shield flashing on the outside of the panels and have high temp brick base. Might still be too much heat loss? Eventually I'd like to fire using biodiesel. . Several students have used the school home-made-single-layer-fiber raku kiln to go to ~ cone 5 with two low pressure natural gas burners. It is about 2 ft diameter and maybe 2.5 tall. tried it on a lark and all was well. did not take long . started after noon done before 4. The buttons were made with bisqued cone 10 stoneware. "try it, u'll like it!" (or so said the Alka-Seltzer commercial of yester year. You could hold the fiber in place with bailing wire for the first firing , bisque the buttons in that firing, then use the buttons to wire a more permanent installation. The buttons would be no different than cone packs in a regular firing. LT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark C. Posted August 19, 2016 Report Share Posted August 19, 2016 Cabaco I posted a thread on button making http://community.ceramicartsdaily.org/topic/14942-ceramic-homemade-buttons-everything-you-may-or-may-not-want-to-know/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cabako Posted August 19, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 19, 2016 Great info all! Magnolia I think I'll try your suggestion. If the wires can withstand just one firing then I will make the buttons. I was planing on making the loops very wide and attaching them against the grain so as not to damage the wool. Maybe doubling up the wire as well. And Mark I think I'll try to make cone 10 porcelain button with wool behind it which is a great idea. Ive read there is some Cone 10 porcelein that is still quite strong when fired to cone 6. Maybe that is the most robust option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Longer Member Posted August 21, 2016 Report Share Posted August 21, 2016 I built one years ago with no buttons and just high temp wire. It's maybe 10 years old and has 100 firings on it and the wire and fiber look like they're brand new. I didn't wrap and twist it, rather bent 90s in it to go through the hole and then another 90 in the opposite direction. What this does is spread the load out over a greater area and uses the wire "spring tension" to hold the fiber to the wall. In other words, I bent it like a staple but instead of the staple closing inward towards itself, it bends outwards at 90 degrees. It's quick, easy, dependable and breaks all the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark C. Posted August 21, 2016 Report Share Posted August 21, 2016 DP what temp is it fired to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benzine Posted August 21, 2016 Report Share Posted August 21, 2016 I like my ceramic buttons. Myself and my Art Club students made them look like faces. So when the kiln gets to temp, and we take the lid off, we have some glowing kiln gods watching us unload... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cabako Posted August 22, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 22, 2016 Ok well I'll be using galvanized steel wire, I looked up the spec sheet on the wire and it says melt point is 2800 F....I'll try the staple method... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark C. Posted August 22, 2016 Report Share Posted August 22, 2016 The galvo part will burn right off-you would be better with stainless-but I think its all going to get to brittle as its not High temp nichrome . Mark let us know what happens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Longer Member Posted August 23, 2016 Report Share Posted August 23, 2016 DP what temp is it fired to? ~1825ish F, maybe 1900 sometimes; it all depends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcia Selsor Posted August 23, 2016 Report Share Posted August 23, 2016 I used home made buttons the door of a large car kiln and on a hinged door of a sprung arch kiln that I built at the university. They were very similar to Marks's buttons. I also used kanthal high temp wire. These kilns were fired frequently to ^6 reduction, sometimes twice per week as the semesters got busy. They lasted for years.Kanthal wire is not that expensive. I think it is worth the price. You can buy it buy the foot. Marcia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cabako Posted August 24, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 24, 2016 Panel "stapeled" to frame... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnolia Mud Research Posted August 24, 2016 Report Share Posted August 24, 2016 fire your buttons, and then replace the "staples" and you will have boot-strapped your self a kiln. LT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Longer Member Posted August 24, 2016 Report Share Posted August 24, 2016 Panel "stapeled" to frame... I did mine opposite of what you have. The "open" end of the staple and legs is in the firing chamber radiating outward maybe 1 1/2" from the hole. I don't think it'll make that big of a difference other than if your holes are 2" apart, then only 2" of the fiber will have support whereas with mine it's a total of two 1 1/2" areas 2" apart. Theoretically, my way would spread support out over a larger area thus reducing the tendency of the fiber to sag; at least that was the thought process. I don't know why, i just don't like the idea of buttons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark C. Posted August 28, 2016 Report Share Posted August 28, 2016 Wire works fine at low temps(rake and low fire) but just does not hold up well at 2400 degrees and reduction atmospheres.Thats why I use buttons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cabako Posted September 10, 2016 Author Report Share Posted September 10, 2016 Update, "Kiln" & buttons made. Bowl to hold buttons and stamps etc during firing is drying. Probably bisque fire this week. Did a test fire of the kiln, it easily ramps up to 1600 F no problem, I have to crack the lid in the back for a draft. I got it as far as 1900F before having to leave. Took about 30 minutes. It will be very tricky to get a steady ramp and hold any temp. It also cools off rather quickly...I think... Anyway, will be interesting during glaze fire. I am hoping the white ceramic tube in the corner is where the flame hits and spreads the heat...I don't know why the pics are sideways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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