RBS Posted August 16, 2016 Report Share Posted August 16, 2016 I'm trying to buy my first kiln and decided I want one of the short ones because they are supposed to be easier to load. I'm deciding between the Skutt KM-1222-3 or the L&L easy fire e28S-3. Any thoughts to consider? From reading older entries in this forum it seems like the L&L were the best a few years ago, but I was wondering if things have changed lately. I'm looking for ease of use, repairs and durability. Thank you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilestrick Posted August 16, 2016 Report Share Posted August 16, 2016 Neither of those kilns has changed in the last couple of years. The big difference between the two are that L&L has the hard ceramic element holders, thermocouple protection tubes, zone control as a standard feature, two section control box that stays cooler and is easier to work in, and a solid top kiln stand. If you go with the L&L, I would consider consider getting the new Genesis touchscreen controller. It's super cool, and only $150 extra. I'd also get the quad element upgrade if you're firing to cone 6 or above and have the budget for it. It will pay for itself in added element life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark C. Posted August 16, 2016 Report Share Posted August 16, 2016 Its like ford and chevy for cars I own 3 skutts and would defiantly buy an L&L next time I think they are made better-they cost a bit more but you get more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pres Posted August 16, 2016 Report Share Posted August 16, 2016 Like Mark, defiantly or definitely , would buy the L&L. Have been running an old L&L for over 20 years. No controller or setter, just use cones to fire to Cone 6. Fire up and down, used to not have that luxury with setters, but now I would buy a new L&L with the programmable controller touchscreen or not, and all the bells and whistles. best, Pres Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joseph Fireborn Posted August 16, 2016 Report Share Posted August 16, 2016 I have an L&L. I love it. Changing the elements was worth the money, plus I love the zone controller. my next kiln will be L&L with the things neil said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugaboo Posted August 16, 2016 Report Share Posted August 16, 2016 I own an Olympic and am pleased with it. I recently bought a small L&L for test firing and LOVE IT. I would definitely go with an L&L for my next kiln. I even had it shipped and it arrived safe and sound, snug as a bug in a rug in its specialized shipping crate. T Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glazenerd Posted August 16, 2016 Report Share Posted August 16, 2016 Paragon man myself. Nerd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RBS Posted August 17, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 17, 2016 Thank you all, very helpful info. Seems like L&L wins. Neil, what's the advantage of the new Genesis touchscreen controller? and the quad element upgrade ? I'm not familiar with either. I am planning on firing to cone 6 but I'm not a full time potter so I don't expect to fire too often. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronfire Posted August 17, 2016 Report Share Posted August 17, 2016 The Quad element upgrade has 4 rows of elements instead of 2 per section in the kiln, or 2 elements instead of 1 per section ( 1 element does 2 wraps around the kiln). The Genesis controller is the newest controller from Bartlet with touch screen inputs and easy to follow programming. Hope to replace my Sitter on my Skutt 1027 with one of these and 3 thermocouplers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilestrick Posted August 17, 2016 Report Share Posted August 17, 2016 The Quad elements will last longer. Element life with the regular elements is not bad, though. The Genesis has more features than the Dynatrol, and is especially nice if your'e doing custom programs, cooling cycles, etc. It's also Wi-Fi enabled, so you can get software updates, and will soon have off-site monitoring capability. I expect that it will be standard equipment in the next year or two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick White Posted August 18, 2016 Report Share Posted August 18, 2016 In addition to the features Neil mentioned, I like the touchscreen interface because it allows me to see the whole program at once, to easily make any corrections/adjustments. It has some additional programs built-in now, such as a downfire program that is available to all cones, just set it on or off. The overall interface is very intuitive, requires much less explaining to artsy students who are math/logic challenged. A few things I don't like: The old controllers had a feature where you could press #5 during the firing and it would tell you the current actual measured rate of temperature rise. This is important, in my view, because many kilns are not able to muster the assigned rate of increase due to fundamental underpower or worn elements. The controller will still run it up to the pre-assigned end temperature based on the expected rate of increase, but if the actual rate of increase is lower than programmed, the target cone will be reached at a lower actual temperature. That means you are overfiring by a cone or two without knowing it (unless you put witness cones in the kiln and observe them exactly when the controller thinks it has finished the ramp up). Keeping track of the actual rate of increase in the later stages of the firing is important to knowing when elements are beginning to wear, or knowing the actual attainable rate when creating a custom program. The other less critical item is the programmable delay. The old controllers allowed a delayed start in hours up to 2 digits, or 99 hours. That's 4 days into the future, admittedly a long time. But 10-20 hours is not unusual - load this morning, set it to start tonight. The Genesis allows only a much shorter delayed start, a few hours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msievers@skutt.com Posted August 23, 2016 Report Share Posted August 23, 2016 My name is Mike Sievers. I am the Marketing Director at Skutt Kilns. We always struggle with how to respond to Forums when only one side of the story is being told. Since Neil is a distributor of L & L Kilns I figured I may be able to weigh in on why Skutt and other companies do not use element holders (even with the quad system), thermocouple covers, and leave zone control as an option only on certain models. I am not suggesting that Neil is misleading people. I think all of his posts are spot on and he should be commended for sharing the knowledge he has contributed. All I really want to do is provide full disclosure of the benefits AND liabilities of these features so people can make an educated decision on what is right for them. This being my first post I will wait and see if it is approved to continue the discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark C. Posted August 24, 2016 Report Share Posted August 24, 2016 Welcome Mike We have other manufacture reps as well on the forum . I'm sure the mods do not mind you chiming in so go ahead and speak your mind. We have a few kiln manufactures on this site We are all pretty civil around here. I will ask why my stainless jacket rusted so bad on a mid 90's 1227 kiln and the ones I have from the 80's never have yet rusted.was this a bad batch of jacket material or something else? One other thing is most manufactures never use stainless screws and they rust within years. I realize a few dollars more for these screws is an added cost but they would never rust.The cost benefit would seem to outweigh the minimal cost. Looking forward to the reply. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msievers@skutt.com Posted August 24, 2016 Report Share Posted August 24, 2016 Okay so I guess I have permission to proceed. Lets start with Element Holders. Element Holders have been around for a long time. They are extruded refractory components that fit into channels cut in the brick and are designed to protect the brick from damage and make element replacement easier.They are not patented and may be used by any kiln company that chooses to use them. So, why doesn't everyone use them? Element Design One of the biggest arguments for not using them is the restrictions they impose on the design of your elements. Most kilns have two element grooves per brick. Kilns with element holders typically only allow 1 wrap per brick. There are "quad" systems available that allow for two wraps per brick but they add significant cost to the price and also add a significant amount of mass to the firing since they are much denser than the brick. When you have the element holders that only allow one wrap it forces you to make some compromises on your design. The first is the gauge of the wire you can use. For example, on a typical 10 sided top loader you may use 14AWG and 15AWG wire whereas in kilns with half the slot length you may need to use 17 AWG. Smaller numbers are thicker and if you know anything about element life, thicker is better. When you have more wire to work with you also have the freedom to balance the elements. The top and bottom of your kilns naturally firer cooler than the center. With more design options you can balance the heat better in the kiln by designing the top and bottom elements to run a little hotter. This allows you to have an even firing kiln without the use of Zone Control which I will talk about latter. Another benefit to having more wraps in the kiln is you have more loading options. It is always recommended that you have at least one element radiating between kiln layers to avoid cold zones and allow your ware to be exposed to the radiation emitted from the elements. In a kiln with 2 wraps per brick those elements are every 2" to 2.5". In a kiln with 1 wrap per brick they are spaced every 4.5 inches which gives you fewer loading options, especially if you are firing shallow items like tile and plates. While we all hope nothing goes wrong in a kiln the fact is occasionally it does. We all know some one who for whatever reason has over fired their kiln or got a bit of glaze in the element grooves. If a bit of clay or glaze gets in the groove on a kiln element holders it will fuse the element to the holder which can be very difficult to get out and often involves having to cut it out of the groove before you can remove the contaminated holder out to replace it. If the kiln over fires enough, the holder can warp in the groove and the only way to get it out is to chip out the brick holding it in place and then replace the brick and the element holder and the element. Yes, element holders can protect the brick from careless impact by shelves when loading and yes it most likely is faster to change elements but most manufacturers agree that the benefits of element holders weighed against the liabilities is not in the best interest of the customer. I am going to stop now primarily because it is 5:30 and I want to go home but also to see what the response is. The last thing I want to do is screw up a forum. If the overwhelming response is for me to stay out I will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilestrick Posted August 24, 2016 Report Share Posted August 24, 2016 Thanks, Mike. It's good to have you here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bciskepottery Posted August 24, 2016 Report Share Posted August 24, 2016 Mike -- it is always helpful to have insights from the manufacturer's of the equipment we use in our studios and to have manufacturer's who care enough to read the forum postings and contribute to the discussions. And you are joining a very helpful group of kiln experts -- Arnold Howard from Paragon and Neil to name a couple -- who share their knowledge and experiences with members and their questions. We also have members who work for Sheffield and other distributors. Being in the business, you know you will find potters with strong convictions based on their experiences -- whether preferences for kilns, how to center, or . . . one of our most interesting and continuing discourses, the use of Griffin Grips. Hope you feel comfortable enough to stay around the forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark C. Posted August 24, 2016 Report Share Posted August 24, 2016 Mike again welcome and at least for me the more the better as to electric kiln experts(which I'm not). As Bruce noted above we all have our bias but more info is better in all regards . I to hope you stick around. Their are so many with electric kiln questions these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msievers@skutt.com Posted August 24, 2016 Report Share Posted August 24, 2016 Thanks for the welcoming response! I will try not to make a fool of myself. In response your question Mark, I am not sure why one would rust before the other. As I am sure you know their are many different grades of stainless. Their degree of resistance to corrosion is primarily a function of their nickel content. Again, there are give and takes for all grades only one of them being cost (although cost is a big one). We chose the material for our bands based on a balance between memory and corrosion resistance. Our kilns are kept together by stretching stainless steel around assembled brick. All of the hardware hanging off the kiln (i.e. lid prop, lid hinge, handles...) is held in place by this stainless steel band (the brick has no holding strength). When the kiln heats up and expands the band gets slightly stretched. The bands we use have certain amount of memory that allows them to remain tight after the kiln cools. If it didn't you would have to continuously tighten them. A loose band can be a dangerous thing especially when it is holding a 80lb lid over your head when you are loading a kiln. We do give up a little corrosion resistance. To help prevent corrosion a downdraft vent helps tremendously because the fumes are no longer escaping across your lid band and between the sections. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilestrick Posted August 24, 2016 Report Share Posted August 24, 2016 Griffin Grips TRIGGERED! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilestrick Posted August 24, 2016 Report Share Posted August 24, 2016 To help prevent corrosion a downdraft vent helps tremendously because the fumes are no longer escaping across your lid band and between the sections. Ditto what Mike said. A downdraft vent will make a huge difference in the level of corrosion on a kiln. Remember that you're creating sulfuric acid when the sulfur fumes mix with the water vapor during a firing. If you can vent that out before it has a chance to escape and reach the metal parts on the kiln you'll generally have less corrosion. That said, the environment the kiln lives in will also make a huge difference. I work on some kilns that have to have all their wiring connections replaced every time I replace the elements due to corrosion, even with a downdraft vent. My kilns live in a studio that is not air conditioned, yet they have very little corrosion for some reason. That goes for both my L&Ls and my little Paragon test kilns. Further proof that there a many, many variables at work when it comes to ceramics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sprig2 Posted August 26, 2016 Report Share Posted August 26, 2016 I don't know anything about the two brands you mentioned. So am no help. I have had several paragon kilns. I liked them fine. Paragon is manufactured about 2 hrs from where I live so its handy if I need support or parts etc. I am not a big fan of digital kilns, but thats just me. I like simple and easy and in expensive to fix should it need it. But a lot of people like the newer kilns with all the bells and whistles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilestrick Posted August 26, 2016 Report Share Posted August 26, 2016 I don't know anything about the two brands you mentioned. So am no help. I have had several paragon kilns. I liked them fine. Paragon is manufactured about 2 hrs from where I live so its handy if I need support or parts etc. I am not a big fan of digital kilns, but thats just me. I like simple and easy and in expensive to fix should it need it. But a lot of people like the newer kilns with all the bells and whistles. For as fancy as the digital kilns seem, they are actually easier and safer to diagnose and repair than the manual kilns. In some cases they are less expensive to repair, too- switches cost more than relays. Digital kilns are also less likely to over-fire. Paragon is a good company, and it's good to have them nearby when you need them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Longer Member Posted August 26, 2016 Report Share Posted August 26, 2016 I don't know anything about the two brands you mentioned. So am no help. I have had several paragon kilns. I liked them fine. Paragon is manufactured about 2 hrs from where I live so its handy if I need support or parts etc. I am not a big fan of digital kilns, but thats just me. I like simple and easy and in expensive to fix should it need it. But a lot of people like the newer kilns with all the bells and whistles. For as fancy as the digital kilns seem, they are actually easier and safer to diagnose and repair than the manual kilns. In some cases they are less expensive to repair, too- switches cost more than relays. Digital kilns are also less likely to over-fire. Paragon is a good company, and it's good to have them nearby when you need them. We've had bad customer service with them and the Orton boards cost way too much compared to a Bartlett. I'm kinda with Sprig. My wife turned me into a kiln snob at first by not letting me buy any manual kilns but now that I've gotten a few, I like them. I'm about as "analog" as a guy can be and like the fact I can clean up switches, bypass stuff and beat-to-fit, paint-to-match parts from different junk kilns into Frankenstein builds if need be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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