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Joseph F

Creating Product Lines / Over Time

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I am finally at the point where I am going to be making ceramics to sell.  :D  :D  :D  

 

Right now I have just been making a lot of random shapes and things because I was testing many other things like, glazes, schedules, glazes on those schedules, clay bodies, application methods etc. However now that I am going into making pottery to sell I want to nail down my focus on particular objects so that I can throw them faster and more efficiently. 

 

I don't really ever plan to make the same exact looking objects in surface but I do want to make the same shapes within a 1/4'' or so in size. I am not huge on it being exactly the same but it will be close.

 

I have been looking around online on etsy and other venues at what sells. I have been jotting down shapes and forms and sizes in a notebook. I plan to start selling online first as I want to get some feedback on my products before I invest in going places to sell pots. Online seems to be an effective way to start. I have plenty of time to make pots full time so production wont be the issue. I am hoping to have several hundred items listed on etsy by mid year and maybe around 1000 by year end. Right now I make about 20 pots a day, because I was busy testing many other things. Now I plan on scaling that up to 50-60 a day, and then even more as I start selling. All this is to build a huge online presence on etsy. My goal is to be firing my kiln nonstop until I can afford a bigger one. 

 

 

So my question is, how do you develop pottery product lines?

 

I was thinking along the lines of making 3 of them, glazing them differently and putting them online to sale. If they never sale adjust price, and continue to wait. Repeat this for lots of different objects and then find out which ones sale best and are the most profitable to make based on time to make and space in kiln. Is this the right logic? Or should I just make things I like making and forget about making a product line?(although I enjoy making most things) I just don't think I can make a living selling a few different things, particularly online because I think the greater the amount of items you have listed the higher the chances of sales because of how their search engine optimization works on etsy.

 

Any help or ideas would be much appreciated, cause right now I am jotting down a list of forms to make this week. 

 

For example, I was thinking about something like:

 

1. Set of nesting bowls

2. Different types of bowls, soup, pasta, mixing, cereal, rice, etc

3. Center piece bowl

4. Mugs

5. Jars with thrown lid

6. Bud vases

7. Jars with cork lid

8. Utensil Jar

9. Plates, 15'' platters(big as my kiln will allow)

10. Spoon rest

11. Soap dishes

12. Sponge holder

13. Large vases, and some with lids

 

So just making hundreds of pounds worth of all these things this week. Then over time eliminate things that dont sell well or improve/modify them until they do.

 

Sorry for the long post, I am just at the realization that I am done testing things... and kinda freaking out a little now that I am actually going to start selling products.

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Joseph,

 

A lot of folks do this by doing the "craft fair" circuit and testing out potential pieces.  Doing it without taking that approach is maybe more difficult.  Probably take longer if it is all "online".

 

I think that another important aspect of this process can be addressed before you get too far into the making part.

 

For each of the items you have in that list above ......... please explain to me, in writing, exactly why I will want to buy YOUR version of that object over the ones made by (pick a real person or just say "Potter X).

 

I am NOT asking you to post this online ... just to write it out for yourself. 

 

It will help you develop your identity and products.  (And will also help result in sales ;) ).

 

Best of luck with 'taking the plunge'.

 

best,

 

.......................john

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Joseph:

 

I only do tile, so I cannot offer you any words of wisdom on this issue. Except to say I have an extensive background and experience in marketing after being in the construction industry for over four decades. When I left the union hall in the early 90's to open my own company, I began building spec houses for sale. Rather it is pottery or houses the principle is the same: you have to know "your" market. By which I mean, the pottery market shares common interests anywhere in the USA and Canada. However, sizes, colors, shapes, etc will vary from market to market. What is hot on the West Coast may not be so hot on the East Coast. So you have to figure out what is "hot" in "your" market.

Figure out your "bread and butter" pieces: which means a line that sells consistently and provides a revenue stream. (Operating budgets). From there you can begin to add specialty pieces that fetch more money. From there, you can then add your "signature" pieces: the items that define you as a potter/artist. As my business grew from doing one spec house at a time to doing ten spec houses at a time I paid very close attention to the comments. The one question I always asked potential customers was not "what did you like about the house", which is important. More importantly, I asked them what "they did not like" about the house so I could gauge market response. People liking your work will spark interest, but people not liking certain aspects will stop them from buying it.

I have every confidence you will get it right, and you will succeed.

 

Nerd

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If you're planning to sell on Etsy, check out their seller's guides. I don't sell a lot there, since I don't have a lot of extra to sell; but I have the occasional sale, usually around the holiday. It just depends on what people want at the time...if you have more to offer you'll sell more. Tyler is totally right, too! I keep a lot because some things have flaws that don't make them saleable, or I really like it or need it.

 

Pricing is always tricky on Etsy, since you're dealing with a national audience. What easily sells for $50 in California or Boston or New York won't be purchased by someone in most of the country for more than $30. But priced too low, it won't sell because people think it's cheaply made and low quality. Plus you need to figure out shipping fees ahead of time, a whole 'nother pain. :-)

 

If you make what you love to make, that beauty and sincerity will come through in the work and make it appealing to others.

 

Check out what successful Etsy sellers do: great descriptions, clear policies, good photos.

 

And good luck!!

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As far as the online concern, I know it will be a long hard road. However due to some health issues I don't see myself going to craft fairs and shows at this time. So I have accepted it will be slow. That is why I plan on making so much to counteract it to the best of my ability. I plan to go around to local shops that sell handmade pottery and try to get my work in there as well. I have read all those threads on this forum about that type of situation.

 

I think the hardest thing to think about is John's question. Why will my pots sell over potter XYZ's. I really don't know the answer to those questions at this time.

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Joseph,

 

It's funny that I typed up a very similar post recently, then deleted it. I've spent the past 18 months figuring out what shapes, clay bodies, glazes, decorations I like so I think we're probably in the same place with our work. 

 

I do a lot more surface decoration than you do, so that's what I base my "collections" on, then make other "plain" pieces (my version of plain) that coordinate with more than one collection. If I hadn't done the very FIRST show that I did, I would not have expanded the California Wildlflowers design that I make now. The first bowl I made in that design was my favorite. I thought that didn't mean anything, but it was the item that was picked up the most and sold the next day by a customer who called me after the show. I could actually watch people find it with their eyes from fifteen feet away and walk straight toward it. So I started making more items in that design and I sell all smaller pieces in that design as fast as I can make them. As usual, my problem is not running out of ideas, it's finding focus. Making the dozens of items I want to make in each of ten collections is outside my reach right now. I've been really stuck for the past two or three months, not making much, just thinking a lot about what I want to do. Just within the last week or two I've started to move forward again. 

 

One piece of advice as someone who has sold on Etsy for 3+ years: my shop became unmanageable when I hit more than 200 listings. A shop with that many listings is so hard to maintain. Anytime anything changes you have to go through 200 listings and change them all individually. Also you will have customers asking you if you have things even if they're carefully categorized because the selection is overwhelming. What I would recommend to you is if you're making the same product more than once I would have a listing with a photo of several of those items, mention that they will be within a size range and a color range, otherwise unique, and set a quantity available rather than having each of those items listed individually. I've had good results with listing several items in one listing, and adding listing variations so they can buy any of the items alone or buy them as a set of X. Mostly they buy the set, to my surprise.

 

I agree what Nancy says, except that now they have a shipping calculator so if you can get a decent idea of the packaged weight it will be automatically figured for you. 

Final note: I would definitely not count on Etsy as my main source of pottery income due to the changes they've made in the last couple of years. You're going to spend a lot of time driving your own traffic to them and competing with "handmade" pottery listed by resellers that has flooded their site since Oct. 2013 when they started to allow outside manufacturing.  

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Final note: my list of forms looks a lot like yours. One of my recent decisions is to start with just a few forms that I already know are popular (spoiler alert: mugs) and make several of those in each of my favorite designs. Then once those start selling and I can see what colors and shapes are selling, I will start to add in my next few items like batter bowls and utensil holders, lidded jars. Does that make sense? 

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I think the hardest thing to think about is John's question. Why will my pots sell over potter XYZ's. I really don't know the answer to those questions at this time.

 

The act of actually thinking about that causes you to take a long hard critical look at what you make.  And no... it is NOT easy.  When you get done.... you'll have the start of a "marketing plan" also.

 

Don't go to a "paralysis by analysis" level... but don't go in with unrealistic expectations either.

 

best,

 

.....................john

vinks, glazenerd and GiselleNo5 like this

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The hardest part about evaluating a business plan is an honest assessment of value. There is a big difference between taking pride in your work, and being prideful about your work. The later will cause you to over price your work. Personally I would go to local art shows/fairs with a mental list of the pieces I plan to make. I would make mental notes about all similar pieces, noting the lowest they sold for, and the highest they sold for- and find a median. Selling cheap usually indicates a cash flow problem, and selling high usually means they are well established with a following, or over estimating the market, or arrogant. Compare your apples with their apples, not their oranges. Look for a niche-- find holes that others are not covering. They are not the competition- you are. :blink:

 

Nerd

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I think for now, thinking about everything. I am just going to continue making what I enjoy making and putting my heart into that and going from there. Even though I have my glazes nailed down, I am still experimenting with those for the design. I think as I keep glazing and developing my aesthetic I will think of other forms that would be enjoyable to glaze and make, and progress from there. 

 

I mean if I could sell only mugs online and have hundreds of different mugs listed in all different shapes and sizes that wouldn't bother me a bit. I truly enjoy making them and putting handles on them. I know not a lot of people here sell online, but I am pretty dedicated to figuring it out. 

 

Thanks for all the great advice. Lots to ponder as I work over the coming year. It will be interesting to look back at the end of 2016 and see how all this ended up going.

 

I am out of likes for the day!

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I only started in pottery 3 years ago, is that all its been? Wow seems like I've always done it. Oh well anyhow even though I am currently doing pottery I have been working and making enough to support myself as an artist for over 2 decades. I see you are in Georgia, there are a lot of potters in the southeast, that's where I am as well by the way. People know pottery in the south.

 

I would suggest doing a few local one day craft fairs, the input you get from just watching people handle your work is invaluable. I have many issues for not currently doing national shows, which I have done by the way over the years with other art forms. I've done festivals from Key West to Niagrara Falls, New York City (yes I drove into the city and set up a booth in Central Park), Chicago, Detroit and all the places in between. For awhile traveled so much I once woke up in my own bed in the middle of the night and couldn't remember where I was or which direction the bathroom door was. Not fun but made a lot money.

 

Change in life means I can no longer travel like that. So tested my stuff at some local one day craft shows, thought I was doing badly then realized a show with maybe 1 or 2000 people isn't going to pay me what I used to get at say Ann Arbor. Locally I know I can get $500-1000 at pretty much any local one day fair with good weather. Peanuts I know but I am talking SMALL shows in small towns just around where I live. I have to admit though I like showing up on a Saturday setting up, selling, then going home to my own bed. Craft Fairs are also a good place to sell those items not moving online.

 

Online is HARD. It takes planning and patience. I have 5 domains feeding 2 websites, an eBay seller account, Amazon Seller account in the process of opening, and 2 etsy shops, one is Pug stuff anything and everything Pugs from paintings to pottery to greeting cards if you are looking for something starring a Pug that's where you need to go. Seriously go buy something! The other one is just my pottery and nothing else it's a Pug Free Zone. I just restarted my etsy presence this past year after having to take time off for a couple years due to... well life... I guess.

 

If you make all one of a kind things plan to spend a day each week just photographing, measuring, weighing and describing each piece. Don't scrimp on these, online people will only know what you show, get sloppy and leave stuff out and people won't pull any punches about letting you and everyone else know it. I started doing the variations in etsy so I could with one listing get 4 different colored items but all with the same Pug image on it and it cut way down on my time photographing stuff.

 

Think of it this way, 5 photos per listing x 200 listings that's 1000 photos just to get your shop up to speed, now add in variations like 4 different colors if you list each color separately multiply that 1000 photos times 4 so you are now at 4000. So variations within listings and solid design lines that you can recreate very closely time and time again will make things easier. I only have 4 solid design lines at the moment in my regular pottery, but do test out other schemes regularly to see what sticks. I am currently offering around 12 standard Pug images I'll put on just about anything I make.

 

So let's say I am listing spoon rests, 12 different Pugs x 5 different camera angles x 4 color choices x 2 different spoon rest sizes.... It makes my head ache just thinking about it. But I do it and have the stock to support it because trust me the one color you are out of is ALWAYS the one they will order. I do more in private custom requests online than I do in regular sales and whether you want to get into that is up to you. I can put anybody's pet on any of my pieces so I happily take custom requests. I have a permanent light box and digital camera set up and as I make new items not within my regular lines I put it on the shelves in that room. Those shells fill up quickly and if the stuff is sitting in a shelf unphotograhed it's not out there selling! Oh and don't even get me started on inventory control.

 

Now you have everything photographed, guess what now it's time to figure out shipping. Weigh each piece make note of it and hopefully you are making them exact enough that the weight doesn't vary from identical piece to identical piece. Write the weight down, now pack it up securely and safely in a box. What size boxes will you need on hand all the time to meet demand? I Know my common sizes and have a shipping area set up permanently in my garage next to the shelves full of completed stock. Once you have packaged up each of the different types of items weigh the boxes and write down what each weighs. Now don't forget how you packaged these samples up since if you used 1 sheet of paper and popcorn for the test but use 3 sheets of paper and popcorn when you actually ship, your weights are going to be really different. You can lose money on shipping if you don't know what you are doing. Nothing worse than thinking yay I have a sale, oh bleep it's going to Alaska and I got the weights wrong for the etsy shipping calculator so it's only charging them for 2 pounds stead of 3. I learned that lesson a few decades backwhen shipping out 24x30 framed pieces from my website. You get a sale where you actually lose money after its all done because the shipping was double your expectations and you don't forget it.

 

So now you are set for online sales but want a few shops and galleries to carry your work as well. Don't forget to keep your prices the same from festival to online to shops since people shop in all those ways these days and you don't want there to be large variations between venues. You have your work in gallery A which takes 40% commission and won't do wholesale and then you have shop B which only wants 20% so you need to have your prices based on the 40% locale not the 20%. You are happy you've done your math and everything is golden...

 

Wait a moment gallery A is selling but slow to pay you... Hmm didn't think you'd have to go running after your own money did you? Your contract says they are to pay you by the 10th of each month, you do have a contract right? You call the manager is busy would you mind calling back, you stop by even though it's an hour drive one way for you, They say the accountant that writes the checks is on vacation. You sell really well here so you don't want to just yank everything out but how long and how much trust can you afford? You do get paid eventually but find out this is probably going to happen frequently at this gallery. How many vacations can one guy take anyway? You have to decide how much you are willing to put up with. I have a rule no shops or galleries more than an hour away it's too hard to keep an eye on things. Oh and don't forget to allow for gas and mileage on your vehicle when pricing your stuff.

 

You say no consignment for me wholesale only! Okayyyyy you get a request for a wholesale order.... They want to see alllll the different dog breeds you have to put on stuff and all those dogs on all the different forms possible before they can make a decision. You panic for a moment then think PHOTOSHOP! And make up a quickee 3 day catalog showing all those things. You then get asked for it to be printed, sigh okay. Now grab a few samples for touchy-feely, the printed catalog and make your appointment to get your wholesale order! It'll all be worth it right? They love EVERYTHING but decide on just a few items to test and by the way will let you know by email what they want to order, can they order online please? So now printed catalog becomes digital catalog and you think not worth it butttt oooooo the money of a good solid wholesale account is inticing.

 

You get everything done and sit back waiting for the order. A week passes, a month, you drop them a nice email or phone call reminding them of the start of the season approaching and that you will need time to hand make each item. They say oh yeah we forgot we shall do it right away. 2 weeks before the season starts you get the order, it's a NICE order but they want it by opening because back at your meeting you said it would be no problem to get it to them by that date. The fact that you said that 2 months ago and have been waiting to find out what precisely they want has nothing to do with it. But smarty pants you have racks of "blanks" done up awaiting glaze and images because you sell online and have planned ahead for those custom orders you get. Whew!

 

If you are thinking eazy-Peazy I can do all that with one hand tied behind my back while juggling running chainsaws, then I welcome you to the world of the professional potter. We might lean a bit to the crazy side for doing what we do but it's the good kind of crazy and I personally can't imagine doing anything else.

 

T

PS. There are a lot more successful potters here than I and I think each and everyone has done it in their own unique way so just forget everything I said here and do it however it works for you.

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For a quite different view on the more "typical" Etsy approach to sales ........ see this person;  Kanzaki Shio-san.

 

https://www.etsy.com/shop/kanzakishiho?ref=l2-shopheader-name

 

This is generally not low end stuff.  Prices in the thousands of dollars, not hundreds or tens .  And yes... he is a well known ceramist at the peak of his career.  I've spent a small bit of time at his place in Shigaraki...... amazing man.

 

124 sales showing.  If they all were at only $1000......... $124,000.  And Etsy is a US "sideline" for him.  He sells mainly in Japan.

 

best,

 

..................john

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When I was starting out about a year ago, I had similar thoughts about Etsy being a reasonably doable (I won't say easy) setup. It really isn't. The work is comparable to the shows.

 

I will qualify this first by saying that Canadians have a VERY different relationship with Etsy than Americans do (we're not such huge fans) which I leaned through "just doing." I bombed horribly on Etsy. I've made 3 whole sales. My photos suck (you need to look like a magazine), freight here is expensive, and learning how to Internet market is a full time job by itself. There are courses one can take, but everyone and their dog puts them out after they make a few bucks on Etsy and decide that "business coaching" is more lucrative. If you can successfully drive sales to your site yourself through your social media outlets (and you'll need more than one) it's actually more advisable to send them to your own e-commerce site where your customers won't surf away to other shops via the "things you might also be interested in" selection.

That said, because my local Etsy team rocks at throwing a party, and I pulled $600 (which was awesome for me for a one afternoon sale with a $100 table fee) at the "Made in Canada" pop up events that was held in my town. I was the only potter there. I haven't closed my shop yet.

 

The clientele available online is very different than my in person customers. They want different things, and offer different feedback. It's a whole other set of market research. And that in-person feedback from sales can be difficult to replicate with questionnaires and surveys.

 

Whichever route you go with, shows or online, I'd pick one and nail it first before branching out to the other.

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If you can successfully drive sales to your site yourself through your social media outlets (and you'll need more than one) it's actually more advisable to send them to your own e-commerce site where your customers won't surf away to other shops via the "things you might also be interested in" selection.

 

 

Yes, yes, a thousand times yes!! 

 

 

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Joseph,

 

I like the list you made to start this thread, except I would eliminate "jars with cork lids." Cork lids are an outdated look. Make ceramic lids!

 

If you have health issues that will prevent you from doing regular shows, do you think you can do one show per year? If so, a wholesale-based business might make sense. The best way to get involved in wholesaling is to take your pots to a trade show once a year. It's not something you should do in your first year. As you've noted, you still have a lot of work in front of you, developing a line, prices, and figuring out your production capacity. And trade shows are an investment, usually a few thousand bucks. If you decide to pursue this, figure out exactly how much it will cost and start saving. Don't do it until you can pay for everything upfront.

 

The downside of wholesale is the earning potential is lower than doing shows. But the earning potential is much greater than online sales. It's a good option for those who can't do shows. I know I've been saying recently that I am getting out of wholesale now, but I don't regret doing it for 8 years. It was a steady income stream. More importantly, when you spend some years producing wholesale volumes, it makes you a very efficient producer. Ok I'm not as productive as Mark C., but compared to the potter I was before entering the wholesale world, I am a machine!

 

The big trade shows are in the Northeast, but there are smaller ones everywhere. In your neck of the woods is the Atlanta Gift Show. "Gift Show" means it is not just for handmade, it is a broad show with a handmade section. I was recently talking to a long-time gallery account in South Carolina. She goes to the Baltimore and Philly shows. but she also loves the Atlanta Gift Show, and always finds a new artist or two there every year. I suggest that you plan to visit this show. Walk around and see if you can visualize yourself there. Talk to other artists and ask what they think about the show. This show is actually going on RIGHT NOW, can you get over there in the next two days? If not, don't sweat it, plan to go next year. Again, this is an idea that is down the road for you.

https://www.americasmart.com/content/market-january-ghr.html

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Jeff Kuhns in Silver City N.M. is way more productive than me-not so much with little stuff but shear quantity of work.

He does shows all over the US check his work out at a Big show near you.He travels way more than me to shows.

They do not have much web presence(takes more time than most want to spend)In fact most potters I know do not spend any time with web sites or chat boards.

He travels to Florida -east coast and midwest shows as well as some in the west.

I have learned a lot from him- mostly in treating customers in a new light.He is the one I learned to write the amount they owed me on a card and have them mail me the funds if they are light money wise. It called trust and in this world its almost gone. I have made so many lifelong customers doing this. Also to let loose with the work and feel once its made its someone else's and more on to the next batch. After is made and finished its someone else issue to enjoy or whatever. His way of business is so free it amazing. He does not take cards (credit) works with about the same booth he has and for 3 -4 decades -no canopy. He's an animal in the studio production wise .

He gets his bags for shows at albertsons  grocery market and that have that name on them. When he runs out the customers cradle the pots in their hands in old newspapers. He like me has dedicated customers. His work includes rather huge works of giant forms mixed with lots of functional wares in stoneware.

Look for him a large show like Ann Arbor in the spring-he's a traveling fool that puts on the miles.When not working he takes his family to their other house on the pacific tip of Baja and fishes and surfs-he's there now.

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My furthest show was 5 years doing a Denver show. It was a 2.5 day drive one way show was 4 days

After 5 years I decided 12 to 13 k was not enough to keep me going back. I gave it up 10 years ago.

I still mail a few pots to customers in Colorado from those connections.

Cherry Creek is one of the best shows in that state- I never got into it and stopped trying 15 years ago. Now I would not go.

You can apply to many good shows on zapp if you are wondering.

I do a few Zapp shows still but I,m an invite and do not jury thru them only pay fees thru them.

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Thanks for all the replies today. I have been thinking a lot about things. 

 

Some of the things I have thought about.

 

1. I already have a ton of stuff bisqued. So I am going to glaze that stuff and list it.

2. When I am glazing the above stuff, I am going to try to find some glaze combinations that I can label as style. (combination of sprayed glazes and brush marks and drips etc.)

3. I am going to start sketching products then throwing them on the wheel and testing them.

4. When I finally start making these new products, I will be glazing with with the glaze combinations and labeling them with those styles I created above.

5. I will make these styles for each type of pot, so that when I make a listing, I can list the primary pot, then show the same pot in the 2-4 other styles(or how ever many i end up with probably 1-2 in the beginning). This will save me time from listing a thousands of products multiple times.

6. I will keep making random mug types, because I love making them in all sorts of sizes. They will be my experimental pots to keep myself learning new things. Like new glaze combinations or new glaze test etc etc. I also want to keep making random mug types so that I have a lot of random colors and mug sizes to bring in customers on etsy, since I think the most popular item to sell on etsy is mugs. So that will help people find my shops to find my real product lines.

7. Once I nail down my product lines I will have a brochure type thing made and I will get out to local galleries and wholesalers and try to start setting up those connections.

8. After a year of doing all this, I should make enough lead way to afford some indoor fancier shows and display my product lines there. Like the one Mea posted about.

 

I think this is my plan for now based off all the good feedback every one has gave me. Thanks.

 

I guess I should also mention that I basically have a degree in economics, I am one class short that I haven't been able to finish. I have a very good knowledge in the understanding of prices/demand/elasticity/etc and all the intricacies of micro economies.  I almost have a second degree in sales as well(3 classes short). I also worked in the tech field for a very long time, mostly in web development and sales through search engine optimization, so I am not really afraid of the internet and its massiveness at all. I am assuming this will help me a good bit in my journey online. I also have a close friend who makes his entire living on etsy. Hopefully all this will give me some advantage.

nancylee, Tim T, oldlady and 3 others like this

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