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Professional Courtesy


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This is a topic I want to throw out there for comments and discussion as I've never seen it addressed anywhere.

 

At this past weekend's conference, most of the presenters had some of their wares for sale.  There were 3 main presenters, 2 of which are wheel thrown artists and very well known in the pottery world.  Their work fetches a good price and as far as I could tell, was not discounted for the conference. Others were there offering various workshops on a particular technique. I couldn't tell if the other folks discounted any, except for one who had fairly low prices.  I asked him about this and he said he was offering his work wholesale to his fellow potters since he didn't have to pay his distributor, gallery fee, whatever.  I told him this was very nice of him, thanked him, and bought a piece.

 

This got me thinking.  In my other life, I was a professional.  If I went to someone in the same profession, it is pretty much the norm to offer a professional courtesy discount. (Usually about 10%)  I would do the same if someone in my profession came to me for services.  I think it would be great if potters did the same thing.  Maybe not in regular sales, but for something like the conference.

 

What do you all think?

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This type of discounting falls into my overall sense of "boundaries" when it comes to pricing. If someone wants to offer artist-to-artist discounts, that's fine. But please don't expect every artist to do it. Let every artist decide for themselves.

 

When I want to buy another artist's work at a show, they will often offer me a discount. I will say "I insist that you charge me full price." Then sometimes that artist will insist back, and we'll settle on a smaller discount. I would never act like a discount is required.

 

I do not give artists a discount, but I will forgo sales tax if they are paying cash. Most artists are paying cash from their own sales till.

 

When I was doing wholesale trade shows, it was common for artists to walk around shopping towards the end of the show. These artists expected you to sell them your work at wholesale price. I refused, and got lots of raised eyebrows. I didn't care. A 10% discount might be reasonable, but a 50% discount is not reasonable. Just another reason to not like trade shows.

 

Trading is another story. I love trading with other artists.

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I agree 100% with Mea's post ...

I too have had the 'end of show' shoppers looking to spare me the job of packing up the piece they have been eyeing the whole show .... Uh uh.

Trades I will do and I usually have lower prices on work I offer to my students in workshops ... I figure they have paid to be there, so a little thank you discount is in order.

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This sets off my "personal boundaries" alarm as well.

There are enough people who want us as artists to work for free and/or cheap, why on earth should we be doing it to each other?

I will be flexible in my valuation if an artist wishes to trade an item that is not *quite* the same price at the end of a show. Think plus or minus five dollars, and I haven't had anyone want to trade me anything more than a $40 price point. But if you can't afford it, you can't afford it. It's not up to me to offer you a discount because there's an assumption that you make less money than others because you also happen to work in clay. I would in no way expect any kind of discount from another artist.

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I have found that many artists at art fairs will give discounts to other artists. It's never 50%, though, usually just rounding down. I always give discounts to other potters at shows, but not always to the other artists unless I find them to be very nice. I'm a clay snob that way. Often it's just someone wants a mug and I'll take $20 cash instead of my regular $26. Trades are the best.

 

This sort of thing does exist in other professions. My wife is a veterinarian and there is always a professional discount given, at least around here.

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  "I asked him about this and he said he was offering his work wholesale to his fellow potters since he didn't have to pay his distributor, gallery fee, whatever." 

 

Hmmm, wonder what the other presenters there thought of this, or what his galleries would think if they heard?

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  "I asked him about this and he said he was offering his work wholesale to his fellow potters since he didn't have to pay his distributor, gallery fee, whatever." 

 

Hmmm, wonder what the other presenters there thought of this, or what his galleries would think if they heard?

Good point!

What I dislike the MOST about this is that basically this potter is saying that his work is not worth the price the gallery is getting for it.

He/she is also assuming that no one in hearing range paid full price for something last month and feels cheated for over-paying.

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My story is this in the middle 70’s when I became a professional potter (setting trades aside) when I bought or another artist bought from me we always did not tax one another as a professional courtesy. Discounts where often given either way as well.

Then came the 80’s and 90s when second profession and retired folks came into this art fair world- (this is another subject altogether) as they where clueless as to the normal professional courtesies. Something about a retired Boeing executive selling walking canes that made no sense to begin with?

Since that time I do not tax if I’m aware of them being an artist. Most pay with cash as Mea said as how you pay also makes a difference between professionals. Often I do not know they are fellow artists. I do not give any discount as my wares are very reasonable anyway and folks know this but sometimes they need reminding.

This past summer I was looking at another potters ware who said to me this is my last show ever as I’m losing my Seattle studio and I’m not going to get another (Seattle studio space is at an ALL TIME HIGH now$$$$$)

I have some of his work and I said I’ll take this piece and he rounded down a few dollars-it’s on the spot thing for some-I have done it myself and attitude is everything.

Now your story about no gallery fees and yada yada makes no sense to me- you still have to haul and set up and tear down. After over 40 years of this I need to get paid no matter where I sell the work or how it’s sold. Unless it’s a wholesale show (never done one) the wares should not be discounted as its not in a gallery setting as you where told. That story for me ( pay his distributor, gallery fee, whatever) is a pile-just saying I do not agree at all with that.

It also makes me think that pots are not his sole source of income.

Mark

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It seems I was viewing this issue in a fairly simplistic manner.  The potter was able to give his fellow potters a break so he did. I thought that was very nice.  After reading y'alls (youses for those of you from PA) responses, I looked for more information on this guy and found that he is most likely  in a situation similar to me, that is, a retired professional with a good pension doing clay full time or mostly full time but with no need or desire to augment his income.  This means that my(and his) frame of reference is probably quite different from many potters.

 

Some points I want to clear up and/or emphasize:  My thoughts really only pertained to this particular venue of a small conference, or maybe workshop among clay artists, NOT venues that involved the general public.  Discounts to other potters/artists in a general public setting has been widely discussed and in that setting, I agree that the price should be the price no matter who is buying. I never expect discounts from other potters.  But I also think everyone should just do whatever they're comfortable with.

 

As to the venue, just a small conference, with some tables provided for the presenters to put some pots out for sale.  The potter in question had one table, maybe 15 - 20 pots.  Very informal, we just put our names on any pieces we wanted then eventually found the potter and completed the transaction.

 

Where he sells otherwise, I couldn't determine.  Thinking back, I don't think he said gallery, in fact I can't remember what he said, just something about his costs. However, I must say that as long as it's not in the same geographical area as his other sales, and not a continuous stream of undercutting sales, I just don't see that a gallery should have an issue with this.  I would never sign a contract that placed such heavy restrictions on me.

 

Neil, you mentioned that your wife is a veterinarian.  So you must know that as a profession, vets are expected to give compassionate discounts at a level not expected anywhere else.  People would never even dream of asking for discounted services if they were unable to pay their doctor, mechanic, accountant, optician, etc....

But we veterinarians are all supposed to be bleeding hearts.  Well, maybe most of us are....

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In workshop settings like you describe, it's fairly common practice for a presenting artist to bring pots along like you describe. Often the venue hosting such a workshop only has the budget to pay the artist's travel costs, and perhaps a small honorarium. The artists sell the pots to make the teaching gig worth the effort, as they're taking time out from other efforts that make more financial sense. Let's face it: other clay workers are the perfect people to sell pots to. They like pottery and appreciate the value of it, especially after seeing exactly how it was made. If this one presenter was selling wholesale, it says to me he was indeed not in it to make a livelihood, and I don't think there's anything wrong with that. It's not something everyone can really do though, unless we all want to have fewer awesome clay get-togethers.

 

What I notice some American artists doing when they come up here to teach is charge the flat dollar amount (ie if a given pot costs $75 U.S., they'll charge $75 CDN.). This is NOT something everyone does, and I suspect it'll halt as a practice with the Canadian dollar being worth about $.75 US.

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  • 3 months later...

I was at a show and this potter had a really nice aesthetic, so I thought I would buy one of his pots and possibly start collecting his work. When he found out I was a potter (my wife loves to brag), he immediately stated slashing the price and offering a "professional discount". I was embarrassed for him and insisted I pay full price. I know how hard potters work for their money and they don't need to be discounting anything--they deserve every penny they earn, twice that, and then some. 

 

But, he would have none of it, wrote the ticket for nearly 40% off. I was going to buy 4 cups, but decided to only buy a single because I felt as though I was cheating him. In the end, he lost a lot of money. He took in 60% of one cup instead of 100% of 4 cups. You can be nice to your fellows and profitable. At some point we need to learn that to be a great potter we need to hone our business skills as much as our artistic, creative, and technical skills. But, I digress...

 

I have mugs from a couple of potters that I absolutely love, bowls from several others, and a set of dinner plates I have to pick up still. I paid full price for all. Could I have made them? Sure, but they all reflect a style, aesthetic, idea, or technique that I never thought to do... So, while I "could" I never "would have" and I enjoy celebrating the creativity of my fellow professionals. As a collector, I don't need a discount! I don't want a discount! I want a lifetime of enjoyment from the art I collect--not a K-Mart Blue Light Special! 

 

Here's my idea of professional courtesy. When we were building out the studio, a friend of mine with nearly 40 years in clay showed up at the job site. I had the entire building gutted down to the studs and was expecting a load of tongue and groove flooring to arrive from the mill. The flooring was going on the ceiling and walls. Anyway, the wood had been shipped on a special crate: 22 feet long x 5 feet wide stacked 5 feet high. The problem was it was loaded on the truck backwards, so the forklift I had borrowed was useless. So, we had to unload it one plank at a time, and I was all by myself.

 

Steven asked if I needed help, I told him my predicament, he stayed, and helped load the lumber. He came back every day for six months and helped build out the studio. He has complete privileges at Potter's Fire. Anything he needs... Carte Blanche. That's how professional courtesy works, a tangible relationship based on an exchange of professional services. It is an EARNED courtesy.

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I have only bought one piece from another artist. I have however have bought two paintings- one oil and one water color. I did not insist on a discount, did not expect one- that is how they make their living. I did however insist that they sign and date the pieces for future value.

Nerd

 

Note: Have to agree with Mike, most pottery pieces are under valued and under priced to begin with.

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I've bought quite a few paintings, several for each child in the family.  And some pottery and other crafts as well.   I've never even considered asking for some sort of discount.   And I've known one of the artists for years and her husband since high school.  They have bought my pottery as well and not even a hint for a discount from either of us.    I think that 10% sounds okay but anything more just isn't right.  Quite a situation there where that potter just volunteered 40% off ....

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For friends I insist on full price or free. They have to friends worth giving the piece to!

 

Putting work on sale is acceptable to me but lowering sticker prices is not. So in this situation a sign saying "conference goes get 20% off" is acceptable in my world. The reason of not having to pay a gallery would make me turn away...

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As Mark pointed out, things have changed over the decades. People in my profession offered ptofessional courtesy in the 70s, By the end of the 90s that had gone by the wayside. Now general courtesy is on the decline.

 

Also, I agree that if any discount is given, it needs to be at the potter's discression and never "expected."

 

I still choose to "no charge" ministers and clergy...and I always catch flak for it.... I am already paying the equivalent of 1/3 of an attorney's yearly income in malpractice insurance. Would that be construded as professional courtesy?

 

Jed

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My wife insists that I should offer a discount to other artists at art festivals. I prefer not to, but in the interest of a happy life I will. If I am interested in their art a trade would be nice. Fortunately I have never been asked to trade by someone whose art I don't care for; that could be awkward.

 

John

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Fortunately I have never been asked to trade by someone whose art I don't care for; that could be awkward.

I have, and it is awkward. The last time it happened I said that I was low on inventory at home, and needed work for my next show. Good thing that most artists understand there is a protocol to trading: it must first be established that both parties like each other's work enough to own it, before anyone mentions the word "trade."

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yes, it is important to have to want the traded item.  one of the vendors next to me wanted to trade for her scented things.  i was able to tell her a little lie, that my asthma prevented me from having them and that is why the tent side was down.  she came up with some cash.  

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As far as trades I have been asked for years-from everything from clothing- jewelry -wood-ceramics-pot-toys-music-ballons-food-odd stuff-buy and sell you name it.

I rarely EVER trade anymore-I need my work to sell-I own to much and and not looking for more stuff. I go to the show to sell my work.

I did more trades 20-30 years ago but now its only if my wife wants what they are offering and thats usually nothing.

My line is I need my work for another show-everyone gets that.

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