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Posts posted by yappystudent

  1. 11 minutes ago, liambesaw said:

    So just to be clear, as long as you study art outside of a classroom you can be original, but if you pay to study art, you can't.

    No. That is a black and white argument and therefore useless. I'm saying college classes and worse yet, degrees, for the most part get in the way of creative flow, and yet are touted as essential to being a real artist, when the opposite, by and large is true. Many may claw their way past schooling and use some of what they've been taught to add to their repertoire, but what would they have become without this interference and instead merely have been encouraged and supported to do their own thing instead? 

    17 minutes ago, liambesaw said:

    You're assuming that people attend school to gain creativity and leave as artists. 

    No. I'm assuming most people go to school out of a sense of obligation and pressure from society and elsewhere. 

    20 minutes ago, liambesaw said:

    I feel like creative individuals will always strain to be creative and original, it's just something that drives them.  Creativity and curiousity go hand in hand, so no, I don't believe that a quick primer on the history and technique of art (which is what formal schooling is) will retarded or deflect any of that innate personality.  We have hundreds of years of formal education and success to point at as proof, so I feel like the burden of proof would fall on people who doubt the value of education.


    Tl;Dr: creative people are creative, uncreative people arent.  School has little bearing on the originality or creativity of an individua

    Rather than quote and answer how I disagree with every single sentence in one way or another, and not wanting to spend all day on it, I'll just say you can basically reverse all your points and that would be my responses. However I do want to specifically respond to "Hundreds of years of formal education and success to point as proof..." -sits firmly on how you define "success". What you call success I call failure, abysmal failure to be precise. Failures: Where is the thriving art culture in the US? A sliver of what it should be. Also, universities serve only the wealthy so that leaves the other 99% out in the cold or decades of debt. Colleges are still expensive if you're poor and at least the one I went to in CA had a lousy quality of education. One may decide it's worth it to become a doctor or scientist, yes, schooling in that case is obvious but to become an artist when you're already talented? I'd say there is a lot of justification going on due to dollars and years spent. 

  2. Another suggestion: if I were going for this look, I'd apply black underglaze with a brush, let dry then drag bright red underglaze over the surface using a finer brush, making sure the red 'strings' are applied as two coats at least in part. I'd do some tests so see how high I'd have to fire to get the underglazes to run together, if it's porcelain fired at cone 6 that should do it, but you could try a clear glaze over all. I've gotten some underglazes to run together really nicely as long as it's mid-fire temps. 

  3. 4 hours ago, LeeU said:

    Nothing new under the sun-there's a simple concrete difference between plagerism/copying and inspiration/being intentionally derivitive or extending the elements-phyiscal/visual/and/or thought-wise,  in some way.

    I'm not quite following what you're saying Lee.  What does intentionally derivative mean exactly? It's something I'm having trouble wrapping my head around although I'll guess that it's some version of inspiration? 

  4. 4 hours ago, LeeU said:

    I have to say, Yappy, you do pose food for thought! I like the mix of dialogue on the Forum, re: technical info, experience shared, guidance sought, and attention to aesthetics.

    Yes I hope differing opinions can be expressed on the forums without flaming, it does bring some life to it from time to time beyond technical exchanges. 

    No offense Lee, but I'm not sure why I end up exchanging comments with you all the time when you're another hand builder like me and I'm asking the 'what's so bad about flubbing wheel pottery' question again. 

  5. 17 hours ago, liambesaw said:

    You say that art has to be original and that studying art leads you to copy art. 

    Actually I didn't say that, I've heard other people say that, but I agree with it to the point that I think art degrees are worthless unless you want to do art like other people, squash your innate talents or become an art teacher. Some who survive art degrees go on to make beautiful art because they're just that good, but someone's going to have to prove it to me that school didn't just get in the way, or do something a hired shop, self-study and practice couldn't do. My statement was basically in response to LeeU's statement about knowing your foundations of craft, but it got me thinking on a larger scale also. Is learning how to glue a frame together and handle your materials really worth college tuition and all the other crap forced upon you to obtain a piece of paper? 

    Let me be clear on the studying art as I obviously fudged that one: I study a ton of art, usually on Youtube-  (*boo, ....hiss....*), -books, other artist's websites, online galleries, etsy, etc. Oh dear,  how could anything outside of a major institution possibly be worth studying? I admit I have taken classes at a crappy junior college, for credit, and the other kind of classes, and other than a bit of drawing discipline, two words which should never be linked together IMO, I didn't learn anything except that I was a good artist and institutions are there to get you to conform through use of drills, something that should be the opposite of an artist's goal. 

  6. 17 hours ago, liambesaw said:

    It is the thing to get good at, if that's the choice you want to make as an artist.

    I was referring specifically to folks lamenting decades of struggling at the wheel without success. Surely there are better things to do when you reach, say the 10 yr mark. I'd like to hear someone who is still 'failing' after 10 years of this describe what it is that makes them keep coming back to the wheel. Let me just say about ten minutes at the wheel is enough to confirm in my mind "Nope." Why would they make the choice you're referring to? Since I don't have an answer I'm going to say it's trying to conform to an unreasonable and limiting social norm.  


  7. Copied the boilerplate log page that came with my Skutt manual. It doesn't really fit my uses all that well so I basically just write over the fields with whatever info seems relevant. When something goes wrong (I leave a waster propping open the kiln lid by mistake...), etc. Also I've started making an abbreviated list of 'major' pieces in the kiln I'm trying to fire so I'll remember what I was doing when something turned out well or failed. 

  8. A fan.  A small one clipped to the drying shelf when I want to dry out a load I have doubts about. Also  box fan I move around as needed. 

    I set things with bottoms that dry out slowly on top of recycled flooring tiles turned upside-down. These line a big metal shelf unit I have. Right side up, they make the bottoms of things set on them dry more slowly. 


  9. 15 hours ago, Gabby said:

    driven by reaching a certain product they ultimately want to hold in their hands but that many too are drawn by the feel of the whole process

    I get the point you and Pres are making but I see this as a side issue. I too find creating utilitarian objects in clay soothing and meditative. Making the same thing over and over would drive me crazy after a few days or less but that's just me, it's neither a drawback or asset.

    I'm not trying to dump on wheel potters, but frequently hear folks lament decades of struggling at the wheel, hard work, sweating it out, doing it right. This flames my inner doubts. there are other ways... -if it's tradition you're really after,  coil pottery for example is a lot older than wheel pottery. Why isn't that "the" thing to struggle to get good at? 

  10. On 9/9/2018 at 8:48 PM, LeeU said:

    I think applying good craftmanship (knowing & able to perform the foundational elements, processes, materials, methods etc. of the process) is what undergirds  the making of fine art, including art that appears to negate craft.  I also do not think that craftmanship is necessarily falling way short of being art, just because someone has seen one too many perfect brown bowls LOL

    I couldn't disagree more to the first point in this paragraph, unless I misunderstand the use of the word 'undergirds'. All one really needs is a pencil and paper, or a finger in the sand and a camera. The creation of fine art does not rely on foundations, listening to lectures or being told about materials. As I've heard more than one artist say -to the chagrin of the $$universities I'm sure- that you become an artist by doing art, not studying art. (I think the last time I heard this was in the TV series "ART 21" but I'd have to do some research to find quotes) I think art requires mental freedom, and generally unlearning crud you've been taught, which can be quite a struggle. Perhaps that will satisfy the need for some to have struggle and hard work involved. Art is original, otherwise it's just copying, therefore you can't crank out the same thing or almost the same thing again and again and have it be fine art. Maybe some kind of art, but when you start applying a term like art to everything it means nothing. 

    Actually I've yet to see a perfect brown bowl, also I admit I just can't swoon over Japanese tea bowls.  I do really like a lot of the primitive type Ikebana vases however, that use the same clays, glazes, etc. Maybe it's the utilitarian aspect that sticks it firmly in the 'craft' section for me. Vases are for displaying flowers, thusly, are art. The flowers themselves are also art, if they were created by a breeder.  Just because something is crafted well does not make it art.   

  11. I wish I had some useful info to add but I really like the question, because I'm trying to justify buying myself a $100 extruder for just the reasons you mentioned. I've watched the CAN videos about modifying cut slab strips into handles but these feel weak to me despite their efforts to counteract it. I keep breaking my $10 play doh fun factory forcing handles through it, but even being the cheap thing it is, it certainly compresses the clay more than I can get out of a slab.

    Maybe some clay guru would care to do a scientific test of extruded vs pulled handles?  Perhaps just a hammer comparison?  I don't have the handles to spare but I'll bet someone does. 

  12. A point I've been wanting to make: 

    When you're doing real art and interacting with other artists or most viewers (not all) what matters is the art, or more specifically the finished art piece. Your process to get there might be interesting but that's a side issue and recognized as such. "I got sick and had a vision, then painted the vision using crayons and felt tips. I framed it and everyone who sees it says it reminds them of something totally personal, so I don't set them straight, it's more interesting that way." That is art, at least one of my favorites of it's myriad forms. No one gets in your face when you're a painter and gives you **** because you don't use traditional oils on canvas, etc. -even though I do, I can also draw really well, the equivalent of the 2D artist's "wheel" in the artistic social sphere. 

    When you're  doing craft, it's the process that counts, almost to the point the end result doesn't matter.  "yes my bowl/mug/plate is gray and brown and boring as hell but I threw it perfectly on a wheel and therefore I'm a master. It's proportions are perfect, it was fired to cone 10. I did everything the way it's always been done. I learned these things by practice and rote.  It makes you think of coffee when you look at it." -That is craft, not art.  There is a culture around wheel pottery that desires to exclude those who don't have the aptitude, or indeed, desire to drill themselves to learn to center (myself). I've got my own conclusions about why this is, and don't wish to fire up too much of a war of words so I'll trail off here. . .

    I guess I welcome comments. Not much choice have I. 

  13. 11 hours ago, Gabby said:

    I think it is different to be able to do things you want on the wheel and then to choose instead to hand-build (which I think is probably your situation) than not to be able to do what you want on the wheel and hand-build by default.

    It is more satisfying really to have a choice.

    I have mostly hand-built, but I will find it pretty annoying if I never really get the hang of centering and throwing a shape of satisfying shape and size.

    Like you, I would have no interest in throwing several dozen mugs at once. But I would like to be able to make a nice sized urn or jar or teapot of pleasing shape.

    I just want to say I fully understand your point, but I don't agree with it. Probably no one wants to hear me say this again but I'm going to if I can find the words. Linking pottery to a machine that actually limits what you can do with clay is short-sighted. Forcing yourself to do the same ol' same ol' like everyone else does even if you have no talent for it seems like more of a social acceptance thing than anything to do with expression. 

    This reminds me of a point I wanted to make about ceramics vs art, which I will take to that thread.  

  14. Fortunately I'm pretty great about moving on when something's not working, after much experience with painting. I'm talking about making art, not crafting tools. Partly it's because I spend a lot of time cogitating, meditating, and making tons of notes. Knowing what I'm aiming for and research on techniques smooths the process. When I make the inevitable mistakes or the materials don't want to co-operate as they often do I don't feel too many regrets about trashing my work and starting over, and there's the camera to record failures. I do make the occasional small tool but not being mechanically inclined really and time being limited I pick and choose what to spend what's left of it on, and lean towards what I already know and like. However, I'm looking forward to making some of my own glazes. I don't think I could ever be one of those folks who buys ready made bisqueware to decorate, as much as I like just painting, there are certain things I have to make myself from the ground up or they don't feel real. 

  15. Have you ever inadvertently created something totally embarrassing , and you didn't see what was wrong with it until someone pointed it out? 

    When the tv show 'everybody loves raymond' had the episode where ray's mother sculpted a 'well known female body part' and took it to an art show without realizing what it looked like, I felt redeemed for my obviously twisted inner mind. I once did a large semi-abstract painting of a shape that seemed exciting and dynamic only to have it pointed out to me that it strongly resembled something I can't mention directly but it shares it's name with a kind of whale. Mortified, the painting and all it's hard work were never seen again. 

  16. Remain calm. You've encountered what all artists dream of, a patron. I'd worry much more about under-pricing. The things you can't bear to sell will of course be the stuff they will want, and probably for good reason, as it may or may not be better than your other stuff without you realizing it, but the fact you think it is, is a good sign to them it is, so to speak. Collectors when encountering a new artist they think has potential will want the best and most typical things of that artist's style. They might just love your art but I'll wager they also see your work as an investment. They shouldn't be offended that you value your work, it's a good sign that you think your work is valuable and take it seriously. Under pricing shows you don't. One generally has to pay a lot for real art if it's agreed upon to be good. If indeed they do pay quite a lot for your pieces in the end, that automatically boosts you and your pots value overall with future clients. (Kudos BTW!). 5K doesn't sound outrageous to me considering their price bracket VS benefits and risks. The worst they can do is walk away after already buying some of your things, -big deal. Being a real artist means the work comes first, with standards held high sometimes money follows. 

    If parting with something will keep you up at night, hide it well before they show up. If they already saw it, insist it never existed and eventually they may offer you 10k for it. Good luck!

  17. BTW as you wait to save up, it's a good time to educate yourself on the in's and out's. Taking a class or otherwise involving yourself in hands-on clay work is great. I have managed to get a lot of my questions answered via Youtube and all the free material (including youtube videos) on the other parts of the ceramic arts daily website. Pick up a few books (i've been slowly collecting a used library of things on Amazon) Learning what to do with cones is not hard, in fact ceramics is really as 'hard' as you want to make it past the basics. You don't have to learn how to repair your kiln or mix your own glazes, etc, but you'll probably want to do some of that eventually. 

  18. Hi, welcome to the forums.:)

    You sound like me about six months ago. In the end I still would have had to pay for the electrical outlet work, for future supplies and maintenance, technical support since I knew nothing much at the time and don't intend to be a kiln guru at any point. All factors considered it made more sense to buy a well known new name brand than try to repair the thing (an ancient paragon which I'd still like to restore down the road, but will probably end up not) -I'd had dumped on me, even though new was a big expense, (Just under $5k dollars w/ kiln and an outlet with a dedicated circuit) regret over buying a new, digital, electric oxidation, kiln has not yet entered the picture. Also like neilestrick pointed out there is a big difference between old and new technology, manual vs digital. I love my digital controller and most of the feedback I've heard seems most other folks do too. 

    There are nice bright white porcelains that fire at medium temps ^5-6, the temps most new home kilns get to easily. 

    Good luck with your decision

  19. 3 hours ago, Pres said:

    What kinds of organic materials have you added to your clay or glazing recently? Please specify if fired by electric, gas, wood or raku, in oxidation or reduction.

    Folks will recall the low-fire mermaid dish, images of which are in the "What's on Your Workbench" thread. It had sifted unwashed beach (dune) sand. Functionally it seemed to work pretty great and looked OK too. The dish survived being put from the freezer into a 400 f oven. There was an iron spot on it I didn't like, in retrospect I think that came flying off a pair of steel tongs I used to remove a small waster I'd left accidentally propping the lid open at around 1k f...oops...found iron bits scattered over other stuff too. Does the iron count as an added material? If so it was a fail. 

    In a recent low-fire (^O5 -f) I put a fresh petunia flower in the center of a top plate out of curiosity, to my surprise it left an unattractive brown smudge I felt obliged to sand off. I was just going to glaze it also at low temps and wasn't sure if the smudge would burn out. It took some effort. 

  20. I wish I could be more helpful. It's of note that nail polish at has some of the nicest and quite durable paints around and technically they are removable if what you're applying them to doesn't react to acetone (nail polish remover). Go for the fancier brands they'll be ground finer. There's also model paints but I've yet to see a metallic model paint better than your average nail polish. 

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